Hole 5

[Tomwin]

Hole 5 at claiborne park tees off from the right side, not the left. We originally played it from the left mistakenly. The right side is the correct side to tee off from on hole 5.

[dg]

we played it from the right originally, but somewhere along the line we started playing it from the left because someone said thats where you wanted it. (ugh cough, jeff, cough cough)

[sturmgeist]

When we first scouted the hole, Jeff parked every disc in his bag at the practice basket throwing a little sidearm hyzer. Somewhere along the line he convinced himself he couldn't have done that from the right side of the post, or wouldn't have attempted it, so it MUST have been the left side. It wasn't though, we stayed off of that spot purposefully because of the bad ground condition and the ever present anthill there.

The other reason Jeff likes the teebox on the left is that it creates a split fairway. That's true - the tree on the left split the fairway down the middle when you tee from the left side, allowing a gentle left to right or right to left shot, like so: ( || )

But what he doesn't look at is that from the right side of the post, the fairway is STILL split, but it's split by 2 main trees, defining 3 main routes - left to right, up the middle, and right to left: ( || | || )

Houck has this to say about splitting fairways with trees:
One big tree can define two routes, and it can force players to choose if they want to go around it right-to-left (RTL) or left-to-right (LTR). But the most basic interesting fairway starts with two trees. Two trees with a gap between them automatically define three shots: LTR, RTL, and up the middle (OK, let's call it UTM for today). If one of these options is obviously the easiest, players will take that route all the time. So to maximize strategy, let's try to make all three options equally tough.

First, assume that your tee is fixed, and you need to pick the pin placement (diagram A). Bringing the basket closer to the gap makes the UTM shot easier. Putting the basket to the right makes the LTR shot easier, and putting it to the left makes the RTL shot more attractive. Remember that anyone taking the UTM shot is more likely to hit a tree, making that shot more risky if the basket is deep.

Now let's assume that your pin is set, and you have to pick a tee (diagram B). Putting the tee closer to the gap makes UTM easier. Moving the tee right makes the RTL shot more appealing, while moving it to the left leads players to want to try the LTR shot. Move the tee back and forth and left and right until you have it at a spot where players are likely to say "I like all three options about the same" (or, as I prefer, "I hate all three!").

I picked a tee and pin placement on that hole that I think will encourage people to try all the options, and eventually lead them to the conclusion that they need to learn the most difficult shot in disc golf - throwing straight at the basket.

[Jrodisc]

.............crickets...................

[el-jefe]

its a better hole from the left side.

[sturmgeist]

As usual, very convincing.

[el-jefe]

Ive played it both ways......from the left is a better hole. I guess it all has to do with your skill level and whether you want more of a challenge or not.

[fuzzy]

For me personally I am gonna shoot up the middle route from either spot. The middle lane is harder for me from the left side. If I were to take the anny route I think it would be easier from the left side, obviously. I dunno though I cant think right now. The ground sucks on the left though for sure.

Oh and I just dont see anyone ever throwing the hyzer on that hole. Is it even realistically an option form the right side of the tee?

[el-jefe]

Its all in the eyes of the player. Those that want the straight shot up the middle from the rt or from the left taking the slight hyzer up the right side. I like the challenge from the lft side just because it is alot more challenging, something claibourne need to maintain do to its "short" nature. I'll keep playing from the lft unless its during some sort of league play. Ive also started playing the rt side of 4. That really makes that hole challenging.

[el-jefe]

there is no hyzer from the right unless you want to throw it outside the trees on the right and then bring it back through to the basket. I like the forced hyzer or anni do to the many holes that have a straight at the basket approach.

[dg]

playing on the left side makes the annie easier, but hey, the hole is easy period!

oh, and playing 4 from the right side of the tee???? i call BS, lmao.

[Tomwin]

Neither side is more difficult than the other. I aced from the left straight up the middle and a few days later on the next round i played i got it with a hyzer from the right side around the trees. Both times with an avair.

The right side was the original design intent, playing it from the left side was a mistake.

[Tomwin]

Ive also started playing the rt side of 4. That really makes that hole challenging.

Why go out and take it upon yourself to change the design intent of the holes? Just play like everyone else and enjoy it.

[sturmgeist]

A slight curve shot, be it anny or hyzer, is always easier than an arrow straight shot. From the left side both shots are easier for me because the chance of hitting a tree is radically reduced, although the difficulty factor is artificially increased due to a higher chance of injury due to bad ground.

And to answer Fuzzy's question about the hyzer from the right side - it's there, but it's not a good shot to take. In fact, there are three options with a hyzer shot. 1, thrown between the two trees, leaving you wide left. 2, thrown outside the right side tree most likely leaving you short. 3, thrown wide right outside all the trees. They're pretty much par routes but they're there if someone wants to try.

[dg]

i cant believe how much discussion about design there can be on a 100 foot hole. LOL

anyone down to hit up some houston courses on tuesday next week?

[sturmgeist]

I'm down, I've been wanting to get out to Houston and play some courses for a while now.

[el-jefe]

after playing 3 houck courses at circr and then another in kyle, I would recommend playing some houck designed courses if your gonna quote houck. It'll put some of those quotes in context. Our courses need to be tightened up and made more difficult if anything.
hole 5:
I dont know if I would call the right hyzer shot a line, its more like a poor throw if you are outside the trees. Houck would put the tee box 5 foot directly behind the first pine and make the tee shot more difficult forcing a side arm up the middle to the right of the tree or a difficult anni around the left, keeping the hole short. Having played 80+ houck holes in the last 2 days has given me a lot of insight into his design characteristics. He's a tricky little bastard. 6 up won at kyle and I shot a 14 up. I think we need a new course maybe designed by houck to give us some challenge. Klein has some of the challenges but some of the "easier" holes need to be tightened up, but I will say that the woods have really taught me alot and improved my skills.

[dg]

I think we need a new course maybe designed by houck to give us some challenge.

thats the plan, we're gonna try to get him to design tyrrel

and dont forget that the island 'was' a houck course, before the hurricanes, hopefully if we can pay him to come down to beaumont and design tyrrel, he'll stop by the island and throw some ideas at us

[el-jefe]

dosen't matter who designs the island, it needs some trees planted.

[Tomwin]

thats the plan, we're gonna try to get him to design tyrrel


If you are serious about this, put a proposal together and submit it to the city of beaumont. If you plan on doing this let me know and I can make a phone call and see about getting a bit more leverage for getting it approved. I think having houck come down to design tyrrell park would be an amazing thing especially since the city of beaumont is putting money in there to redo the park.

[sturmgeist]

after playing 3 houck courses at circr and then another in kyle, I would recommend playing some houck designed courses if your gonna quote houck. It'll put some of those quotes in context. Our courses need to be tightened up and made more difficult if anything.
hole 5:
I dont know if I would call the right hyzer shot a line, its more like a poor throw if you are outside the trees. Houck would put the tee box 5 foot directly behind the first pine and make the tee shot more difficult forcing a side arm up the middle to the right of the tree or a difficult anni around the left, keeping the hole short. Having played 80+ houck holes in the last 2 days has given me a lot of insight into his design characteristics. He's a tricky little bastard. 6 up won at kyle and I shot a 14 up. I think we need a new course maybe designed by houck to give us some challenge. Klein has some of the challenges but some of the "easier" holes need to be tightened up, but I will say that the woods have really taught me alot and improved my skills.

I think maybe you should actually read some of what Houck wrote to put things in context yourself, instead of just playing his courses and deciding you know his mind. The things you generally advocate are 180 degrees out from the things he teaches.

[dg]

If you are serious about this, put a proposal together and submit it to the city of beaumont. If you plan on doing this let me know and I can make a phone call and see about getting a bit more leverage for getting it approved. I think having houck come down to design tyrrell park would be an amazing thing especially since the city of beaumont is putting money in there to redo the park.

way ahead of you tommy, i'll let you know when i submit it in the next week or so

[el-jefe]

damn, seems to me u got a phd in houckology 101. how much are you charging for course designs? go play a few of his courses and pop that cherry, then quote houck like a man with some experience to back it up.You would really benefeit from the hands on perspective. And the island is not really a houck design and hasn't been for some time(except for a few holes). The kyle course is a real challenge. the meadows and hill courses at circle r were excellent and the new back 50 was more open than the rest but with all the cedar off the cut grass fairways and the tall grass and cactus you had to stay on the fairway or you were in a sticky situation with not a whole lot to do but thumber up a little and back on the fairway if you are lucky enough to find a way out through the cedars while stradling a prickly pear to throw. each course had true long and short boxes. the kyle course has a disc golf driving range. But then again, Im sure youve read all about it, why waste the time and gas to go play it.

[sturmgeist]

I popped my "cherry" on the old Pleasure Island, which was the only disc golf course I played for a couple of years untill someone brought me to Tyrrell park for the first time. I really don't care how many of his courses you have had the opportunity and pleasure to play - if you haven't taken the time to read and mull over the things that HE's taken the time to put down in writing on his own course design ideas and philosophy, then you don't have 2 cents to throw into a discussion on the subject. This is about as ridiculous as film critics arguing that Halloween was some sort of political commentary, even after John Carpenter went on record saying that it was just a scary movie about a guy with a mask and a knife. Sorry, I gotta go with Houck and my lyin' eyes.

[el-jefe]

uh....ur pocket protector is crooked.

[sturmgeist]

Argumentum ad hominem.

[el-jefe]

quit reading course design and start reading throwing techniques and putting so u can be our local pro. I dont think quotes help on the tee box though, I know body english dosen't.

[Tomwin]

this thread has gotten too far off topic.

[dg]

anytime jeff and will blab back and forth it gets off topic, lmao