DISC TALK - questions and comments on discs.

[el-jefe]

I am starting a thread to deal with questions about what the different discs do when thrown. I also want to get responses on new discs coming out such as the wraith from innova and avenger from discraft. How did they throw, what discs are they similar to. will the turn over easy or is it tough to get them to turn over. How do they handle the wind, etc...... This thread will be a good resource for beginner players as well as vetrans, especially when dealing with the new discs. You can also post what you carry in your bag and why you have 4 valks of different weights etc....

[sturmgeist]

I'm new to the site, and have been playing 2-3 years, but only casually. I'm temporarily living down the street from Klein Park, so naturally it's become a much more regular thing for me. I had a house fire a couple months ago, lighting struck the roof, and my old standby Gazelle DX got packed up into storage while the house is undergoing renovations. Previously I played with just that one disc, it did everythign I needed to as well as I needed for as often as I played. But since it's been in storage, I was given a Special Edition tie-dyed Leopard(no weight marks, but pretty sure it's in the 170 class), and have since picked up a Champion Beast(167) and an Aerobie Epic and Arrow pair.

My evaluations of the discs are as follows(from right hand back hand unless otherwise specified):

The Special edition Leopard is nice and worn in, and is pretty understable when thrown flat. It curves right nicely and there is usually little, if ANY fade at the end. It does not travel as far or as straight as my sidelined Gazelle. It is VERY resistant to asphalt and tree bark.

The Champion Beast I've only had for a couple of rounds now, but brand new it flies similarly to the worn leopard, but much faster and with the potential to go MUCH farther. It also has more noticeable fade than the leopard. That said, I spent a couple of hours out in the field at Klein Park a few days ago and on at least 4 shots, the Leopard and Beast landed no more than a foot from each other. As I get used to the beast, I expect this to become less common. ::edit:: also, the Champion Beast, when thrown hammer/tomahawk style, with the finger in the rim, if released vertically at a relatively low angle, will STAY verticle, and roll a VERY long way, first forward, and gradually turning left. It rolls VERY far this way.

The Arrow "putter"/approach is an interesting design. If you chuck it hard and release it level, it flies really slow and straight as it's name implies, with just a bit of very slow fade at the end. But the rim design makes it a challenge to release correctly. Though it made fly PERFECTLY straight on occasion, and despite the claims that it is the straightest flying disc in production, if you throw it hyzer or anhyzer... well, it doesn't really RESIST it per say. I have a nasty tendency to release it too late for some reason, making it go arrow straight, only far to the right of where I intended. When I get used to it, I imagine it will be a formideable approach disc, and a merely adequate putter.

The Epic... where to begin with this? I picked it up from Academy because it has such an interesting and unusual design, and it was only 8.99, about half the price it normally sells for on the internet. I read up and researched on it first, and I knew I was in for a rough learning experience. But I had no real idea. This thing is all over the place. When you hit it JUST right, it goes a long, long way. And if you deviate just a couple of degrees in your throw, it translates into 10s to 100s of feet off your intended course. "Tuning" the rim by bending it down to make it understable makes it EXTREMELY understable, and bending the rim up to make it overstable gives it the tendency to stick into the ground when it hits. Throwing backhand, there seems to be NO margin for error. A friend of mine tried it out sidearm, while it was tuned overstable, and drove it right to the pin on hole 1 at klein park onhis second try(the first WOULD have been there too, but some leaves skewed it off course... it's very sensitive) Originally, I bought this disc to try and master it's reportedly wonderful qualities as a thumber disc. I've read dozens of reports of the disc sailing 500+ feet when properly thrown as a thumb-hawk. Supposedly, it will flip over twice in the air, and on the second flip, will remain upside down and flide for an additional 100-200 feet. When I throw it, no matter if it's tuned over or understable, it spirals one time, and then falls out of the air like someone shot it with a 12gauge. In fact, the Leopard and the Beast treat me the same with the thumber throw, so I figure it's got to be my fault.

If someone has some experience with these discs, the EPIC especially, I'd appreciate some pointers. I just know if I can get that one down, at least on ONE type of throw, it'll help me out in those situations where the only good idea is a slightly insane one.

[fuzzy]

The dive straight down on the thumber or tomahawk overhand is normal, that is really what the shot is for. When it comes to that Epic it will spiral all the way and fly like a normal backhand or sidearm throw at the end of its flight. Dont break your arm with the beast and the leopard trying to get a spiral with the overhand because it wont happen and is not supposed to happen. For the most part a thumber/tomahawk is a specialty shot used for going over the top of something(tree, big bush , shrubbery to close to you to get a normal release etc) and does a half flip and drops like a knife.

Btw, welcome to the board and try not to be a stranger at the course. :D

[sturmgeist]

Thanks Fuzzy. Yeah, I kinda figured maybe the leopard and beast weren't overstable enough to flip over good, but I think I can use the roll that the beast gets when I flick it vertically.

But the Epic, is there a secret to getting it to spiral and glide? Because it just does like a normal disc when I thumb it. I throw it usually about 45 degrees up with the flight plate vertical. Should I tilt it a bit before releasing it, or am I just not throwing it hard enough, or should I tune it more overstable or understable to get it to spiral over and glide?

Thanks for the advice.

[fuzzy]

I am by no means a expert with the Epic. I have only thrown other peoples and whether brand new or beat to crap it does the full spiral when i throw it over hand, tomahawk or thumber. I would imagine that you are just not throwing it hard enough. I wouldnt hurt yourself trying to do it though, that shot is basically useless , you can get the same results throwing backhand or sidearm, and the BH and sidearm wont destroy your shoulder for life like overhand is known to do.

What are you putting with? I know you are talking about drives etc but I saw no mention of a putter besides the Arrow. Is that what you are using? If so I would suggest trying something else like and aviar, an omega supersoft or a magnet.

[sturmgeist]

Thank you very much for the advice about the shoulder. I'm already prone to hyperextending my right elbow, I'd hate to end up with a torn labrum or rotator cuff, and I hadn't given that a single thought. The Epic may just end up as a novelty item of sorts for me.

Yes, unfortunately, the Arrow is my putter. Actually, I'm getting quite accurate with it, but I can already see where something like the Supersoft disc would be more advantageous at the basket. Still, I have to hand it to the little arrow, it has a very pretty flight pattern. If only it weren't so springy.

Any tips for keeping the driver disc's flight low? I have a bit of a tendency to release wrong and send them into the treetops. Just yesterday, I spent 30 minutes getting my SE Leopard out of the pine tree in front of the tee on hole 6 at Klein Park. :oops: So I treated myself to a mulligan once I finally got it down, and birdied the hole! I've got most of the motions down from watching videos on discgolfreview.com, and I find I'm comfortable with the BIrd style power grip more than others, but I am having a problem with release I think. I'm pretty sure this is all that's holding me back from becoming consistent with my drives.

What I mean is, does anyone know how a Champion Beast LIKES to be thrown?

[chessguy]

Hey, Will. Glad to have join our website and look forward to playing disc golf with ya. I think we've actually met. Neal here. The Champion Beast has a permanent spot in my bag. If you will throw it chest height and straight with lots of snap, it should go a long ways straight with a predictable fade left at the end of its flight. My favorite hole at Klein for use of Beast is hole #14. I can park it normally as long as I clear those big trees on the right. I also use a beast on 16 but that's about it at Klein as I use Champion Orcs and Leopards and Valkyries on hole 15 and sometimes 17. Is real easy to turn over a Beast and then not have it come back though but that takes a pretty good bit of snap. At the same time, if you throw a Beast hyzer right off the bat, it should straighten out a bit and fly straight. I've been using a Beast on Hole 7 with about a 30 % chunk hyzer, letting it swing back in. I'd highly recommend getting a different putter! Next time you see me at the course, I'll let you experiment with a few discs. KC Pro Roc for instance. Best upshot disc in my opinion and used by many, many pros.

[el-jefe]

Keep the beast! Its a great long driver. As your throw gets stronger get one in the 170s, it is harder to turn over to the right (but still will when thrown with enough snap) and will fade back a little more at the end of its flight. I would recomend a valk for your bag also. The valk is almost a must for your bag. I carry 2 a 171 pro and a 175 champ. The epic, I gave away after the second round I played with it. I was way too inconsistant with it. 1 out of 5 throws would fly where I wanted it. I have seen it thrown overhand and it will do some crazy stuff, but still is very inconsistant. When throwing overhand with your finger on the rim, make sure you release it angled toward your head, with the thumb, make sure it is released angled away from you head. This will get them to flip properly but I warn you, it is still very hard to get it to go where you want. Alot of overhand throwers love to throw the monster, a very overstable innova disc. You may also want to add a viking to your bag, I am getting mine tomorrow. Go check out the selection at Texas Surf CO. Its on limburgh at college st. They have a good selection of champion and pro stuff. Mid range I throw a wasp from discraft and a pro classic roc from innova. You can get you innova stuff at TSC or academy and I recomend you discraft stuff you purchase off the web at flyinhighdisc.com. Good luck, I hope to see you on the course.

[dg]

Best advice for the EPIC: Lose it in the ditch and dont look for it.

The ARROW is fine if you like it, but I wouldn't rely on it for my putter.

The BEAST should be your bread and butter. Since you dont have a lot of discs, and really dont need a lot of discs, you should throw the BEAST on almost every hole. Just aim differently or release the disc with a different angle for different holes.

Also, if you are throwing your shots high in the sky (aka dont touch it god), you are probably holding the disc to low in your back swing. Try bringing the disc near your left shoulder (if you are right handed throwing back hand). Centrifical force is going to cause your arm to move toward your chest area when you swing it. If your backswing is near your waist, your arm will be forced to move upward in your swing, hence the dont touch it god shots.

However, if you hold the disc too high in your back swing, it will cause you to throw the disc too low (aka worm burners).

So go throw in a field, try bring the disc back and throwing the disc forward all around chest height.

Good luck, see ya out there one day.

[CypressTrout]

Good tips, DG. Also, remember that if you're gripping & releasing the disc in a "nose up"positon, it won't matter where your arm comes across, it's gonna sky.Here's a link to a good page with pictures of grips & disc orientation in hand. Try different combos & use what works best for you. Hope this helps.

Scroll Down for Pics. (http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml#nosedown)

[sturmgeist]

Oh man, thanks for all the advice guys. I didn't expect such a turnout. Neal, it's possible we've met, but forgive me if I can't place it. It'll come back to me if I see you again, I'm sure. Usually I've only played with a couple of different buddies of mine. Time before last when we went out there, a cat named Evan joined our game, and I liked the way he threw his beast, which is why I went and picked one up. He was good. I learned a bit just watching his technique, I think. By the back nine though, I think something of me and my friends wore off on him :twisted: cause he joined us in the wood chopping!

Cypress, that's exactly the place where I've learned most of what I've been practicing, but, i really only stumbled onto it a couple of weeks ago, so it may take a few more trips out for everything to pull together. BUt I'm already seeing improvement over my own home taught technique. I KNOW I get the orientation of the disc in the hand right, I always line it up along the line they show there, but I think maybe I'm either not keeping my hand angled down(strong forearms, weak wrists) during release, or like DG said, I'm angling the throw itself up during my pull-through. I think I'm gonna need some more time out in the field on hole 5 there at Klein, or maybe at the drainage park where we go to throw Aerobie sometimes. Next time though, I think I'll take someone with me to throw the damn things back so I don't spend all my time running to get them. Just gotta have patience and practice I guess!

I think this saturday I'll go check out TSC and browse their selection. When I got the Beast at Academy, it was a tossup between that and the Valkyrie. I know, from their popularity, that I'll end up with a Valk... I assume I should spend the extra bucks and go for a Champion, and probably a 170 class? I think I need at least one overstable driver, a predictable one that is, unlike the Epic, though the Epic has served me well on hole 4 at Klein every time I've thrown it. That's the ONLy time it's done good for me though. I'll look at the Viking. Has anyone thrown that new Pro Wraith yet? I'm not one for buying into hype usually, with the epic it was only because it was cheap, but if the Wraith is fast, overstable, AND has good glide, maybe I should try it for my overstable driver?

And I know a Roc or two is pretty much a necessity for anyone serious about the game. It'll just take a little while, like my technique, for my bag to come together right.

And, I hope to see some of you guys out there soemtime. You can ideintify me by the el-cheapo hunter green Golfmate bag I carry, and I'm usually wearing an old Red Addidas soccer jersey with the Commodore 64 logo on front and some german words on back.

[el-jefe]

champion is all you should buy. Wood chopping at klein will eat dx plastic up real quick and everytime you hit a tree with it, it will fly a little different. try using a video camera when chunking in a field. It will give you a lot of insight into how you are throwing. What you are doing with you feet and legs, how your arm is coming across your body, point of release, what your left arm is doing while throwing, how much you are torquing your body, how well you are following through, etc.... The pro Wraith is an intermediate to advanced disc. It is not that hard to throw, it is just super fast. It throws a lot like my heavier orcs and champ. starfire. However it will go a long way fast. You should probably get your champ beasts and valks at academy because they are about 3 bucks more at TSC but if you want tie dyed, the only place to find them is at TSC and they just got a new order in. Youmight also think about an orc in the 165-168 range. it is an easy throwing fast distance driver that I have been very fond of. It is one of my go to discs. Post up under the pick up games thread when you play, because we are loosing light so fast it is getting hard to finish a round after work so most will be playing on the weekend. Post up and that way we can get a game together. Nothing improves your game better than playing with people who raise the level of play. Plus you will see lines of flight that you may not have thought were there.

[sturmgeist]

Wow, that video camera thing is a great idea, I'll have to try that when I get access to our stuff. Most everything, including my precious first disc, my 175g Gazelle, is in storage. But I intend to try that.

I'll check out the Orc whenever I finally get over to TSC, for sure. SO far, all I've dealt with is DX and Champion plastic. How does the Pro stuff hold up? Sorta interested in that Wraith at the moment, but :oops: the trees really seem to like my discs, so if the Pro stuff is delicate like DX, I might hold off on it untill they release a Champion version.

I think, my aquisition list goes as follows, in no particular order:

1 an accurate intermediate disc, like a Roc, or possibly a shark?

2 a GOOD putter, probably an Aviar or one of those Omega supersoft

3 an overstable driver of some sort. I'm finding it pretty easy to turn over the SE Leopard and Champ Beast. I figure it'll help if I get at least one that'll go the other way on me, at least till I can muster up the courage to learn sidearm. That is, of course, after I get my backhand down!

I'll be sure to post when I intend to go out and play, but that probably won't be for a while. I kinda overdid it this last week, and now my dang ankles feel like somebody hit them with a sledgehammer :cry: so I'm gonna give them a rest for a few days and try and let them heal up.

[el-jefe]

Pro plastic is not a delicate as dx but not as durable as champ. I have a pro wraith and a pro valk oh and also a pro classic roc the other 12 disc I carry are all champ or elite z from discraft.

[sturmgeist]

Hmm, on Innova's site, it says that the Wraith is the most durable driver in Pro plastic. Definitely gonna have to check it out this weekend, among others.

[el-jefe]

The wraith is probably the most durable pro plastic because it is so fast and on the overstable side of things, you probably don't want to throw it through the trees on 13 at klein. If you don't hit trees you don't tear them up. lol. My Wraith has acquired a few little nicks, but nothing major.

[sturmgeist]

Alright. This is the collection of discs that I have gathered thus far, if some of you don't mind, I'd like some critique on my collection and some advice on what sort of things I might add next.

Leopard - older SE, dyed, no weight marked, but feels like 175 at LEAST

Beast - Champion, 167g

Valkyrie - Champion 150g bought after recommendation by Rob

Gazelle - DX, 175g currently in storage and sorely missed, my first disc

Wraith - Pro, 175g

Epic - I throw it real hard, anhyzer on hole 4 at klein and most of the time it lands right at the mouth of the path when it does it's imitation of an air to ground missile during it's fade.

Arrow - I only use this as a specialty overhead roller, when I've really got no other shot, like when I have to split two trees that are just a couple inches apart, and the pin is too close for a tomahawk or the ceiling too low, etc. Used VERY sparingly.

Roc - DX, 169g

Aviar putt&approach - DX 175g

I can't throw for **** sidearm yet, so I stick with backhand, and the occasional overhead thumber, though it doesn't seem any of my discs seem all that suited to that throw. I've heard the epic is great for that, but mine takes off, spirals once, and then just falls out of the air like someone shot it. I can throw better tomahawks with most every other disc in my bag. I assume the 175g wraith would be a good disc into a headwind, the 150 Valk with a tailwind, I KNOW the Leopard likes to turn hard right, and the Beast gets a beautiful S curve that I can stick most anywhere I want within my current range(I was about a foot short of my first Ace on #7 at Klein with it yesterday!)

So what do you guys think I should look at next? I was eyeing that Special Blend Orc that was suggested in this thread, and I am wondering what the deal is on the special blend plastic? Is it better than Champion plastic?

Also, a friend of mine is looking for a successor to his battered precious, 5 year old Discraft X2. He was wondering what, in the Innova lineup, might fly similarly for him? He shoots sidearm. I told him, from what I understood, that the Orc might be a good choice in similar flight pattern, just with a little more speed and range. What do you guys think?

[CypressTrout]

Tell him to try a champion Teebird T. Should be similar to an X2 or, he could buy a new X2 ----->HERE (http://www.discshoppe.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=IDS&Product_Code=GD-X2-XT)

[fuzzy]

Kev, you ever find a mid that you like?

[CypressTrout]

I actually played a few weeks back with a friend & he has a pro line gremlin that I tried out and really liked. I'm still negotiating with him over it. Thanks for the suggestions.

[fuzzy]

Are you in town yet???

I have 3 proline gremlins and I guess if the right offer hit me in the face I would consider letting one go.

[CypressTrout]

No, looks like I won't make it this week after all. I am going to states, though. Didn't plan on it, but it worked out. If you're going, I'll catch up w/you there. Are they all used ?? Or, do you have a new one ?

[fuzzy]

All used. One is pretty new and flies like new. One is fairly used and still flies like new and one is beat in pretty good.

[CypressTrout]

You going to states ? If so, bring em with you and we'll see if we can work something out on one.

[el-jefe]

Willis, what chu talkin bout? Your going to states? Are you staying in htown? Give me a call on my cell. I'll be there. My birthday is Sat. and was lookin to go out for dinner and drinks somewhere.I'm staying at Rick Bs. house and Im not sure where that is, I think northwest. I'll see you sat morning at bass.

[CypressTrout]

Cool. PM me your cell number again. I lost all of my PALM info & need it. A guy from here is riding up w/ me to play, too. Gotta carpool at $3.29 a gallon !!

[fuzzy]

Dumbarse!! Why would you write everyones phone number on your palm???? You know when you take that monthly shower you are gonna have to go around getting the numbers from people again. Jump into the 21st century Man! You know they have electronic gadgets now for that stuff :p

[CypressTrout]

It's Sharpies fault !!! On the pen it says "permanent". Yeah, Right.

[el-jefe]

My cell is 409 284 1706 see ya in htown

[chessguy]

Jeff, you guys are in for a big and I mean BIG surprise if you're sleeping under the same roof as Danny. His snoring is like chainsaws--literally. May want to sleep on the other side of the house. :)

[sturmgeist]

Alright, I made my last purchases for a while today. My newest additions will be the following:

Elite Z Wasp, 178g
ELite X XS, 172
CFR Wraith 175g

and possibly a tiedyed X-out valkyrie. It's intended as a gift, but I'll have to look her over first ;-)

What do you guys think about these choices? I know the wraith is pretty popular and I like my Pro... It was otugh choosing between that and the special blend Orc, but I went with what I knew. I've already got my Beast that I can stick nearly anywhere I want within my range, so I think I can hold off on an Orc for a while...

[el-jefe]

good choices. now you gotta go throw in the field and figure out what you can do with your new discs.

[sturmgeist]

yessss.... very true. soon as they come in from Gottagogottathrow.com

[fuzzy]

I need to do that also.

[sturmgeist]

the bad thing about going out in the field and practicing throws... fetching the damn things!

[sturmgeist]

DUnno if you guys are keeping up with this, but Innova has released yet ANOTHER understable ultra-long range driver. The Roadrunner!

company line:
speed 9
glide 5
turn -4
fade 1

Classification: Distance Driver
Diameter: 21.2cm
Weight Range: 150 Class to 175 grams
Brief Description:Champion Roadrunner is a long-range distance driver with lots of glide. It makes an excellent finesse driver or long range roller. Best Distance Driver for turnover shots.
Available Plastics: Champion
Best Choice for: Good first driver, roller disc, tailwind driver, narrow woods driver, first distance driver, downhill distance, long turnover drives.

About the Roadrunner
The Champion Roadrunner is a long-range distance driver with lots of glide. It makes an excellent finesse driver or long range roller. Power throwers can use this disc for long turnover shots and rollers. Less powerful throwers can use this disc for long, straight shots or low tunnel shots. Best Distance Driver for turnover shots.

Seems suprising to me, this thing is almost identical to the sidewinder, on paper. I've still yet to throw an understable ultra long range, closest I've come is my SE Leopard with a bit of a bend in the rim from smacking trees! So, with this thing being so uinderstable, does that meanyou ought to be able to throw it hard hyzer and have it reverse-S and anhyzer out?

[fuzzy]

well that depends on who you are. as a beginner the odds of you throwing anything at all hyzer and it flip for you are slim. as you add more snap you will see more and more discs that will flip for you. just takes time and alot of practice but you'll get there.

[sturmgeist]

So far I can flip my leopard from hyzer, but that's it. And that's cause it's an SE and banged a tree REAL hard one day, and the rim is bent down a degree or two in a spot. I've got to throw it pretty light for it to stay on a hyzer path.

[sturmgeist]

So what do you guys think about the Spider? I handled one at the Surf Shop and it felt, to me, like a classic roc with a rounder edge. In the Midrange/all purpose dept I've got the Roc, an Aerobie Arrow(only thrown SHORT distances backhand when the wind is really bad, wind has no effect on the Arrow) and someday my Z Wasp will find it's way to me.

Bobo let me check out his wasp, and when comparing it to my Roc, the rims looked identical. So can I assume that a Wasp is an overstable Roc in tougher plastic? I think I could deal with that if it is true. Maybe if I get the wasp and it's nice and overstable, then I get my Roc beaten in good and straight, and get another Roc to beat in to understable... or maybe something that is less stable out of the box if it's available in good plastic... You know for some reason I am really drawn toward the Glow-Dyed Ken Climo Rocs at Zonedriven, those look VERY cool, but would it really be worth 35 clams?

Also, Was thinking about a firebird or monster for my sidearm shots. What would you guys suggest there? lol, both?

[chessguy]

Will, I have one of those Glow Ken Climo Rocs. I'm not gonna throw it, though. I'm happy with my KC Pro Rocs. I've got quite a collection of discs that I don't plan on ever throwing.

[el-jefe]

Spiders are great mids. I used to throw one but graduated to the more over stable gator. If you need a disc that will do alot for you, try a buzz. It is very straight when thrown straight, it will also hold a turnover shot or hold a hyzer line. Its flight is a little slower than a dx roc but thats what I look for in a mid. Your wasp will be a little more overstable than a spider.

Why buy discs you'll never throw? Sounds like a compulsive disorder!!!!!!!!lol :-P

[sturmgeist]

Hell, if I bought one of thoose glow dyed, it'd probably be one of my MOST thrown discs. How can you have something THAT cool and not chuck it? That's what it's made for man! How about you let ME throw it if you're not going to? ;) Seriously though, is it cool looking? Does it have the red white and blue thing goin on like the pics at Zonedriven? And is it champion plastic or some type of special blend stuff?

I may have to check out a buzz or spider. I know Neal has Buzzes in his trunk...

[chessguy]

Definately a compulsive disorder! I am a collector of whatever interests me at that particular time in my life. I have an awesome basketball card collection, a virtual library of origami books, and as the "big cheese", I have many nice chess sets and boards. By the way, does anyone dare challenge me to a game of chess. I'll even spot you a pawn or your queens' knight if need be. :D Yes, Will, they all have that flag design but that is not the mold of Roc that I would throw. Those resemble the Classic Roc with the flat top. I like a bit more domey Roc that the KC Pro offers. I have an awesome 178 Champion Viper with a Southern Nationals stamp that I may just have to throw but the 1st Run Red CE Firebird FL with a rainbow stamp will not be thrown. Mostly in part because Firebirds don't normally find their way into my bag.

[el-jefe]

the FL has a spot in my bag now. It kinda flies like a predator. if you get good snap on it, it flies straight for about 200-250' then turns hard left and skips forever. my firebird hyzers from release. the fl is great, you oughta get one you'll throw.

[el-jefe]

my sb orcs are insane. They are fast and a little more overstable than my champs. It is hard to tell the difference between them and my pro wraith with the exception that they are harder to turn over where my wraith will flip easy, almost too easy.(finicky disc)

[el-jefe]

Look out for the new line from innova. the sB will be called the star line. The first I've heard of will be the star teebird. check pdga for more news off the discussion page.

[fuzzy]

i predict after this post there will be anopther useless post by El Jefe in an effort to raise his post count to pass me up.....lmao

[el-jefe]

is this some kinda race? cause Ive got work to do! wink wink..........
useless post huh. I haven't heard anyone around here talkin about starline. just trying to the word out.

[fuzzy]

The post you just posted was the post after the post where i said a useless post was coming...


and i was right :D

[fuzzy]

Guess i should have read the threads on PDGA about Starline. I had just assumed that it was them talking about the different starfires that were out there so i didnt read it. Good to know about a new plastic. Keep us up to date on how that Orc holds up.

[sturmgeist]

What do you guys think of the older CE plastic Eagles? I found a couple in good condition that are going for like $15. Wouldn't mind a bit of CE plastic m'self, and that seems cheaper than what people tend to pay for it...

[fuzzy]

Never was a huge fan of the Eagle but I know a few peopel who are/were. It is a pretty stable disc and if my memory serves me right the yellow runs of the CE Eagle were way overstable and not as durable as the others. You are able to find Eagles and Leopards for cheaper still because there was a huge amount of them still out there when CE was discontinued, maybe they ran more?? Or maybe because they suck??? Not sure.

[CypressTrout]

I have a dark blue one. It is comparable to my ce firebird stability wise but slower. I use it strictly for thumbers.

[sturmgeist]

Yeah, they're yellow CE Eagles. I think I'll pass on that and get some new stuff instead. As for overstable, I think I'm looking toward a Champion Firebird or Monster.

And what's wrong with LEOPARDS?!? My old SE Leopard is probably my favourite disc. Maybe tied with my beast. Hmph, if it's got a space in Climo's bag...

[dizzy]

Hey guys. I see the contest was a failed attempt to discover who I am. Thats too bad. I regret to inform you that this is one of my last post as i have no more time to waste telling cheese what an idiot he is. Im sure by now he knows and that makes me feel great. Like my being here has really helped in opening the eyes of the ignorant. My time here has been memorable and ill still pop in now and again to inform you of my thoughts on Cheese's unvalidated stupidity. Until then. . . good drives, good putts, and bad Cheese.

[el-jefe]

wrong thread dizzy!!!!!!! Will I'd go with a monster. Firebirds are EXTREMELY overstable. monsters will go straight for a little bit before turning. Firebirds go left from the get go. Orcs are another option for you. they are pretty overstable unless you put some serious heat on them then they will s curve.

[sturmgeist]

I'm guessing the Monster would be a better choice if I want it to pull double duty as a sidearm and thumber disc? Hmm... but I do want an orc anyway, they come so highly recommended. I dunno, the Surf Shop is supposed to be getting a new batch of stuff in soon, and the Champion Orcs are the best sellers. I'll have to go look, I might come home with multiple things if I'm not careful.

[el-jefe]

I throw my 168 and 170 orcs mostly. my 175 is very overstable but the lighter ones will turn over and glide right a little then flex out. For my thumbers, I use a teebird. for my pancakes or finger overhand I use my 168 orc. For a tomahawk, I don't throw one. It kills my shoulder and elbow. The best way to learn these shots is to play with the different release angles and throw at the basket from 50 - 60 feet.

[chessguy]

Farewell, my idolizing asswipe!

[dg]

hey El Jefe.....

I notice you throw thumbers...

and you also throw pancakes (or finger overhand)...


what the hell is a tomahawk?

[dg]

hey El Jefe.....

I notice you throw thumbers...

and you also throw pancakes (or finger overhand)...


what the hell is a tomahawk?

[fuzzy]

Yeah I was wondering the same. Also on your version of the pancake, you know the finger overhand, do you do like a real pancake and give the world a one finger salute with your left hand???

[CypressTrout]

Tomahawk---For DG (http://www.ipecac.com/bio.php?id=9)

[sturmgeist]

Tomahawk is but a pale shadow of Faith No More and Mr. Bungle!

But seriously, I may be off, but a Tomahawk, I believe, is just a thumber thrown with a lot of power, as a drive instead of a specialty approach shot. I got a buddy who throws a lot of tomahawk drives with a QJLS, which doesn't seem, to me, like the best disc for it, but he gets it out there around 300 feet sometimes.

I noticed, when throwing my Roc as a thumber, that it spun over much slower in flight, leaving it gliding upside down for a good portion of the flight. I shot what I THOUGHT was a very weak thumber with it over the brush in front of the hole 14 basket, just enough power to get it over the top there, I thought, and when I went to look for it, the thing was damn near 100 feet past, in another brush pile! I found this interesting...

[fuzzy]

Pop quiz: I figure it may be fun since some people have a hard time remembering what throw is what to have alittle trivia (since somehow or another peopel have decided that a tomahawk is something different then a pancake).

How do you throw a Hammer?

How do you throw a grenade?

How do you throw a Scooby/ Scoober?

How do you throw a Chickenwing?

Should be funny to see what your research comes up with for all those. Have fun!

[CypressTrout]

What about a tomato ???

[sturmgeist]

To me a Tomahawk really is just an overhand shot, you can throw it with the thumb in or the fingers in. I call em both tomahawks. Simplifies things. Lot of debate over it I see on the PDGA DISCussion board.

1. Hammer, may be wrong but I think this is an overhead shot, Tomahawk with fingers in the rim

2. Grenade, thrpown backhand, upside down with the thumb in the rim. Never thrown one, not sure what it is used for, but would like to see someone throw one so I can imitate it...

3. Scoober, high angle backhand shot with the disc upside down, held in a sidearm grip with fingers in the rim

4. Chickenwing... is that the same as T-Rexing a sidearm shot, where you don't get good extension with your arm?

Oh, and Tomato is yet ANOTHER regional name for an overhand shot. Pancake, Tomato, Tomahawk, Hammer, Thumber, whatever. I just call it tomahawk, and put fingers in or thumb in depending on which way I need it to curve.

[fuzzy]

Like i said to me it is funny who calls different throws what and when they get all mixed up.

A scooby from when i learned one was what you reffered to as a grenade. It is thrown backhand with the disc upside down at an extreme annie angle like throwing a backhand sky roller. The disc flies striaght and then quick flips vertical and spikes vertically straight to the ground.

I have also heard people call the scooby a scoober, but have also heard the scoober being the same grip but thrown semi-overhand with the disc at an annie angle but released next to your right ear. The shot itself does basicaslly what a scooby does.

A grenade is the same as a tomato, or a pancake.

The thumber is also reffered to as a hammer, or hammer throw.

The chickenwing is what it is and i have never heard of this getting called anything else. It is really an Ultimate throw. You hold the disc in hand with your thumb under and your other four fingers on top of the flight plate. Then you basically throw the disc sidearm but with your fingers facing the sky. Very useful in Ultimate.

I can execute every trick shot that i have ever heard of so if anyone ever wants to see what they do (or atleast an idear) then i would be happy to demonstrate them.

[sturmgeist]

Evaluation of my new discs!

Elite X XS - feels and flies nearly identical to a valkyrie. Honestly, were it not for the words molded into the rim, which give a nice positive grip btw, I would not be able to tell a difference from feel or flight path.

Elite Z Wasp - I LIIIIIIKE this disk. It's a Roc in tough plastic, with a predictable fade at the end, something I can make great use of.

X-out dyed valkrie - very cool looking off center dye job, flies like a Valkyrie, a bit more overstable than my 150, which is what I was hoping.

CFR Wraith 175 - overstable much? This thing is WICKED overstable, more than the Monster Neal let me throw the other day, maybe on par with my Epic, just with INSANE glide, as opposed to none at all. It's almost a completely different disc compared to my Pro Line wraith, same weight. It likes two things, it seems: 1)hovering a foot off the ground for a very long way, and 2) hyzering into the upper reaches of the atmosphere. I have yet to find middle ground with it. Although, if I can get consistent with option 1 there, I will be more than happy. My first throw with it, I threw a line drive into the roots of a tree and it sank to the bottom of a Bog of Eternal Stench. I fished around for it for a few minutes, couldn't see anything, and my buddy says "here lemme try" and he reaches down and grabs it out on the first try...

[el-jefe]

tomahawk is when you throw a thumber. but I refer to tomahawk when throwing over trees. (?) no reason, I think it just got stuck in my head that way.sorry for any and all confusion.

[el-jefe]

:mrgreen: Fuzzy is going to be doing a demo for all the dgers in the area teaching "trick" shots. everyone needs to no how to throw these shots and know what they will do when released. They are good to have in your bag. I'll let fuzzy figure out the date and time.

[fuzzy]

:mrgreen: Fuzzy is going to be doing a demo for all the dgers in the area teaching "trick" shots. everyone needs to no how to throw these shots and know what they will do when released. They are good to have in your bag. I'll let fuzzy figure out the date and time.

Huh????

[fuzzy]

tomahawk is when you throw a thumber. but I refer to tomahawk when throwing over trees. (?) no reason, I think it just got stuck in my head that way.sorry for any and all confusion.

Oddly enough it always got stuck in my head the opposite way. Pancake over the top and tomhawk straight at it.

[el-jefe]

"oddly enough" coming from the fuzz aint so odd!!!!!!!!!

[sturmgeist]

Join Professor Scott "Fuzzy" Linthicum for a special disc golf seminar: Trick Shots and Semantics 101. :lol:

[chessguy]

Surely this will be a "Free" seminar?! :lol:

[fuzzy]

Oh snap!!! You got me! Did it take you since yesterday to come up with that jewel?

[sturmgeist]

For the many of you out there who have jumped on the Wraith bandwagon, like me :)(even though I don't have the technique yet to properly throw the damn thing) I would like to issue a health and personal safety warning:

If, like me, you have a propensity for sitting around, tossing your discs into the air in your home, while bored, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT allow the wraith to come in contact with your bare foot as it falls out of the sky! I was tossing my CFR Wraith up and down, and I decided to be cool and flick my wrist and put some extra spin on it, only I missed catching it, and it crashed right across the bridge of my foot! It was like being whacked with a ball peen hammer, and it STILL hurts. I hope nothing is dislodged in there... Damn those extra wide rimmed drivers.

[fuzzy]

HAHAHAHA.....Atleast it wasnt the bridge of your nose...hehe I cant tell you how many times I have been sitting here throwing a disc up in the air and miss the catch and the disc smack me in the face....lmao T ry learning to spin the disc on your finger while sitting around the house, it's less harmful to your health....lol

[sturmgeist]

Yeah damnit how do ya'll do that? I get like 3/4 of a spin on the tip of my finger before it wobbles off! I never could spin a basketball on my finger either! :mad:

What's the secret? I see ya'll doing it all the time waiting for your turn to throw... If I could learn that, maybe all the secrets of throwing would stem from that one revelation 8)

[fuzzy]

Learn to balance the nub in the center on the bottom of the disc on your finger. Then VERY lightly give it alittle spin. If there is too much friction for it to spin well before the wobble then try licking your finger tip. Once you get good at the balance and spinning it by using your other hand, gradually start trying to spin it on the end of your finger nail. Then (which this is something that i havent even mastered myself in the 8 years i have been doing it) start to gently move your finger in a circular motion while letting the disc BARELY wobble, this can get you a little extra spin happening for when it is slowing down. Finally, add alittle flare , pizzaz if you will, to your other hand when you spin it. Makes you lok real cool and the ladies dig it!!

[fuzzy]

Btw, my 5 yr old daughter spins a mini marker disc farely well, in fact better then I can.

[el-jefe]

It takes alittle practice. stay under the disc and try to maintian balance. make sure you get spin on it though.

[el-jefe]

TSC should be getting some of the new Starline plastic in 2-3 weeks. I think teebirds are the first out. By next spring, disc that are made in champ plastic will also be made in SB Starline so there will be lots to choose from. UUMMM!!!! first runs!!!!!

[fuzzy]

Dam a first run, i just want a run that goes in the basket everytime....Is that too much to ask for????

[el-jefe]

I thought that is why first runs are so sought after. hhmmmm........the $400 I paid for the first run CE valk dosen't guarantee a hole in one every time?

[fuzzy]

you sir have been hoodwinked...bamboozled i tell ya!

[el-jefe]

man, I thought I was on to somethin.....

[sturmgeist]

From what I've read, Teebirds and Sidewinders will be the first starline plastic out. you can already get them as $27 fundraiser discs for the Japan open.

Any news on if Starline plastic is gonna be their new top of the line, or if it's gonna be between pro and champion? I would hope that they at least plan on making them cool looking, cause, no offense to your SB Orcs, Jeff, but they don't look like anything special, compared to the purty Champion plastic. Cause, you know, disc golf is really only about 25% about shooting good, and about 75% looking cool.

Now, if they make them transparent, or opalescent, or give them cool graphics on top instead of the same old dumb hotstamps that I spend so much time scrubbing off...

[el-jefe]

check the so cal site and you can get them for like 16 bucks.

[CypressTrout]

Sounds like the perfect plastic for me. Same grippy pro line feel with Champion plastic toughness. Starfire, please.

[fuzzy]

Umm if it is the Special Blend like the Orc Jeff has then it is basically the exact same thing as pro plastic, not tougher. I think Innova is doing this as a marketing thing, you know, clal it something different to get people to buy it. I could be wrong but I do know that Orc is nothing special.

[el-jefe]

Sounds like the perfect plastic for me. Same grippy pro line feel with Champion plastic toughness. Starfire, please.


I've got two sb orcs which is the new starline plastic!! its pretty tough, not as tough at the champ though. If you like the starfire pro mold and want the same in champ, then get a starfireSL its the same mold as the pro plastic. The orcs have gotten a little scuffed but have not warped or had any chunks taken out of them. I think they are better than pro plastic and "show" more wear than cahmp.

[CypressTrout]

I was just going by what the website said..."same durability as champion". I got a starfire sl at states (thanks Danny), but I still like the feel of the pro. I still have quite a few new pros in the closet, so I'm set for a while.

[bandanaman70]

When I have a real tight window to the basket through some trees, I always grab a real over-stable disc, and throw a belly slide shot. Hold the over-stable disc of your choice and throw a over-hand base ball throw towards the ground. the disc should flip over and skip off the ground sliding off its belly toward the basket. Practice makes perfect!!

[CypressTrout]

Good tip, Dwise. I also seem to use this shot quite a bit. Definitely can get you out of a jam at times, too.

[sturmgeist]

Yeah, one of the few things an EPIC comes in handy for ;-) I have found myself using... what was it Fuzzy calls it, a Scooby/Scoober(?) lately. I keep finding myself behind piles of brush, like the one to the right of the basket on #8, where it's hanging out of the tree, couple inches off the ground, and it's just wide and high enough to make any other shot impossible. So I just turn it upside down with my thumb in the rim and throw it upside down, backhand, toward the ground, and I can usually hit the pole at least with it. I know it has little to no chance of making it in the basket that way, but, better safe than sorry, eh?

[sturmgeist]

After getting my Tulsa Am special blend/starline Orc, and also handling a first run Starline Teebird, and can say with a certain surity that the "extra grip" thing, over Champion plastic, nothing but hype. It's a little softer under normal conditions, but my GOD, you get that stuff even the LEAST bit damp and it's the slickest plastic I've ever thrown.

They still seem like good discs, durable and all, but the grip hype is complete BS. My Orc looks like it's made out of pearly Beast/Orc champion plastic, just with more dye to make it a little less translucent. I'll definitely be sticking with the cooler looking champion stuff in the future, except in the case of things like the Orc, fundraisers and such...

[CypressTrout]

Feels very similar to old ce plastic to me. Great feel for me & much more grippy than my new champion or z line stuff. I need a starline firebird & starfire now.

[el-jefe]

playing in the damp conditions in Victoria this weekend proved to me the starline stuff is grippier than champ. I think its stickier than some of the pro stuff but not all.

[sturmgeist]

Definitely gripper than Discraft Z line, but Innova Champion?I can't see it. Or, can't feel it rather. Dry, it's fine, but get it just the slightest bit damp and it's slicker than greased pigspit. And, wet OR dry, it's nowhere NEAR the grippiness of champion gummy plastic, like lighter weight Vikings and Valkyries. The couple that I've handled just, hell they feel almost like they've been oiled.

Diggin the flight though. And the hotstamp is pretty cool on the fudnraiser orc, I migfht actually leave it on. Maybe as it gets thrown and knocked around and skidded across dirt, grass and pavement, it'll show it's true grip potential. New, they feel EXACTLY like Millenium standard plastic. I bet they're a blend of Champion and Millenium plastics.

Unless Starline proves to be even more durable than Champion plastic, or one just prefers the solid, mostly opaque colours, OR they actually fly better somehow, I'd recommend saving the buck or so extra that they cost and sticking with Champion.

[CypressTrout]

Maybe just too much lotion on your hands ??

[sturmgeist]

Oh please! Never before a round :wink: They just feel a lot slicker to me than they're advertised as being.

In other new disc news, got two reports on discs I advised a couple of friends to pick up:

Innova Champion Roadrunner - bottom line, if you like the sidewinder, youshould LOVE the roadrunner, this thing will hyzer flip a long ways with very little effort, and with some power, turns over in a long beautiful arc. The grip is quite possibly the most comfortable disc I've ever held, and the bullet profile(concave underside) makes it roll STRAIGHT, instead of rolling left then standing up and curving left. neat disc.

Discraft Spectra - WHOAH! This thing is something else! IT looks like a disc from an alien world - looks normal up top except for the FUllcolour design, which is pretty spiffy, but turn it over and it's one of the strangest things you've ever seen! The rim is at least as wide as a wraith, but from the edge of the disc to the bead, it's NEARLY FLAT! ANd the BEAD sticks out like a sore thumb. Despite all this, it's very comfortable to hold, backhand OR sidearm. As for the flight, Discraft rates the stability as a 1, and from seeing it, I'd say it flies like a Teebird-L or a Starfire if you hopped them up on steroids and made it faster than a Wraith. It says Maximum Distance Driver on the top, and it's very easy to see why. It's easy to throw a LONG way. It won't fight a headwind or take a hyzer line, but if you need an ULTRA LONG fast stable disc, it's something else...

[el-jefe]

any disc under 160 will feel like a gummy ( and no neal I'm not talking about yo grandma) because of the thinner plastic on the top plate. champ is the least grippy of all innova plastic. when it is raining you will wish you had dx in your bag cause its the grippiest when wet.

[sturmgeist]

that Glow plastic feels pretty grippy to me

And I've got a brand new, thrown maybe 3 times champion beast(170, first mold) that I'm comparing to the tulsa am Orc, and the Orc is noticeably slicker, wet or dry, but ESPECIALLY wet, so nyaaaaah :rolleyes: You guys go on and pay that extra dollar. =oþ I probably will to for first runs, but after that, no way. Unless, that is, they start making it with a little less dye in the plastic, so it's nice and translucent and cool looking...

[fuzzy]

FYI, it isnt the dye that makes the disc translucent or not.

[sturmgeist]

Oh... well after holding my Orc up to the light, it just looked like pearlescent champion plastic with dark red dye in it. It's translucent, it's just so dark it's hard to tell. I haven't checked the normal Starline stuff that closely yet. I wish Innova made discs that had a little of that Aerobie Epic/Arrow plastic blended in them, when the shiny new is worn off of it, that is some GRIPPY stuff. I doubt any of ya'll had any Aerobie discs long enough to break them in! Even I seem to have less and less use for them these days...

[chessguy]

( and no neal I'm not talking about yo grandma)

I wish I had known one of my grandmothers. My parents are probably older than your grandparents if you still have them.

[sturmgeist]

I apologize in advance for hijacking this thread from what surely could have been a rather morbidly enthralling tangent into the subject of all our dead grandparents and such, but I thought I might take this opportunity to be the one responsible for some of you spending another 20 bucks on something! You can thank me on the course. Tips are welcome, as are complimentary mulligans and orphaned discs.

Anyone seen these?

https://www.zonedriven.com/proshop/product_info.php?cPath=54&products_id=446

Me, I'll be happy sticking with my Pro that is beaten in to JUST the perfect point that it flies like a super fast teebird, and my 175 CFR that MUST have some Firebird somewhere in it's geneology, or Banshee at least. Honestly, I'd sell it or give it away and get one of these pretty new Starline dyes, IF I hadn't already put in a weeks worth of work (hmm, accidental alliteration) and dyed my dead smiley face with the bullet hole in his head and blood pouring down on it. x_x*

But you guys feel free, I know ya'll are all clamouring for this Starline stuff, well there's the Wraith! Starline Beast is out too, but I dunno if anyone besides me is throwing one regularly. Besides, I'm sure it's the newer flippy mold that I don't have a lot of use for, there's other discs that do what it does, better :( Glad I rescued the last original mold Champ Beast from academy...

[el-jefe]

My grandma and grandpa are 79 and 76 and still get up at 5 am to go to work at their lock and safe co in tyler. They are tireless but you can tell they are pretty fragile now. I think the wraith cfr stuff has gone overboard, but what do you do. A lot of money is being raised this year for worlds and thats a good thing, I just hate they are burning out the wraith doing it.

[sturmgeist]

I got a beautifully dyed 174 champion monster from Sunkingdiscs the other day, turned out even prettier in person than on the site. Did I hear someone say that the white Monsters are faster than the others? If that's true, I wonder if it applies to the I-Dyed discs, cause don't all of them start out as white discs? This one is pearly white based. I haven't thrown it yet, but I figured, after throwing a sidearm hyzer with my 175 CFR Wraith, and watching it turn over into a forehand roller :( when hit by a headwind, that I needed something more overstable for the wind that we get around here.

Also, I noticed that the Starfire and Starfire L have been released into normal production, the regular into the champion line(starline starfire in spring) and the Starfire L in starline (later this month Dave from Innova says) Are Starfires any good at fighting headwinds? I got a couple of friends who need something good into the wind, and one of them really likes the Pro Starfire, but isn't throwing his much cause he's scared of getting used to it and then having it wear out.

[CypressTrout]

All plastic seems to have some differences dependent on color. I know that when I used to skate, the urethane wheels varied greatly by color. I don't know if the dyes used actually softened the plastic or what, but white always seemed to be harder than any other color. Tell your friend to buy a stack of s-fires and throw em if he likes em. If they could lower his/her score, wouldn't make sense to let it sit in the bag.

[el-jefe]

my feelings on the starfire is that the wraith is a more overstable starfire. So if you are looking for a good headwind disc, look for something a little more over stable than the wraith. Also focus on your release point, maybe throw with a little more hyzer so that if it flips it goes straight instead of right. I have had to adjust mine due to me getting more speed and snap as well as the wind weve had to deal with lately. (firebird L is great into a head wind, flipping only if really thrown hard.)

[sturmgeist]

Hmm... I think I'm gonna find an SL, or wait for Starline SL, to get to replace his neglected Pro starfire, and as for headwind discs, I'll steer them in the direction of the either the banshees firebirds or monsters.

[el-jefe]

starfire sl in champion is the same mold as the pro starfire. starfire in champion is more overstable than its pro model brother because of the different molds. There is also a starfire sx which I have never thrown but is supposed to be xtra overstable. go figure.

[sturmgeist]

Sorta like the Firebird, FX and FL? You know what gets me? they screw with my favourite driver, they got all these damn different molds of all these discs, Firebird, Starfire, Eagle, Teebird, etc, and they go and screw up the Beast, a SIGNATURE MODEL that Barry Schultz, one of the top 5 in the entire world, RELIES ON. Do they make an ALTERNATE MOLD of it, a Beast L for those who WANT it to be more flippy? NO, they just change the model outright. Cause it acts too much like an Orc? Screw the ORC! The Beast original mold acted like an orc that would glide out during it's fade instead of falling out of the air like a dead duck. I know there are a lot of Orc fans, I like it too, but the Beast was here first, so wouldn't it be the ORC that acted too much like the BEAST? Why not change the god damn Orc? Anyway, I hear Barry Schultz was not happy with the change in mold there, and GOOD for him.

I know a lot of you aren't fans of Discraft and all, but you know what I'm realizing? Their molds change VERY little over the years. I don't get how innova can be the biggest name in the business and be the very least consistent. As I understood it, the Beast was one of their best selling distance drivers. What are they gonna do now? Retool the freakin Aviar cause it acts too much like an Omega?

[sturmgeist]

Oh yes... sorry if I offend any of you Orc loving bastards!

BEAST RULES!

Now I got to go to Discgolfvalues.com and pick up a stack of those first run "Pro Line/Champion" sherbert orange ones before Barry Schultz buys them all. I'll buy some mint ones to put away, and some X-outs to throw, I think.

[el-jefe]

I like the orc over the beast because it is less flippy and faster than the beast. I used to throw a beast when I picked the game back up last year, but soon "outgrew" it. I started having control issues with it and it started behaving like my valks, real flippy. If they did change the mold so that it is more stable now then I might just need to pick one up.

[sturmgeist]

Nah, they changed it to be LESS stable. It's been changed a while actually, so it may have been one of the new molds you were throwing. Edge looks just like your CFR SL we were checking out that one day. The new one flies just like a faster longer valk. The old mold flies like a slightly slower Wraith. I like it over the orc because it has better glide to me, it hyzers out flatter during it's fade, stretching out for a little more distance than my orc of the same weight. Had just enough high speed turn, just enough fade... now it's a flippy bastich that needs a very wide fairway to do it's thing. I'll let you throw both of them to compare next time I'm out there with you.

[sturmgeist]

Star Aviars, Star Valks and DX Wraiths are all out now...