summer 2007 League April 11th

[el-jefe]

Summer League will start April 11th. Details will be posted by the big cheese himself as soon as he gets it all worked out.

[chessguy]

Hey, wait. I didn't say I'd run League. :-) I'd really rather let someone else do that and I could do a weekly doubles or singles mini.

Please send me a pm back in reply to my pm. The $ we need to raise for the 3 baskets won't be a problem. I'm gonna make a list of people who can commit to a suggested donation of $20 towards the purchase of the baskets. Some people I know will be donating more than that!!!

Let's get our baskets repaired. Where are we on that? Post on that thread, please.

[el-jefe]

well what was your pm about?
"You wanna post up on Summer League starting on April 11?"
Ive asked someone to step up and run it and no one has responded until now and that was you. If you want to play league play, someone needs to run it and I can't make that kinda commitment with my kids schedule and my work schedule. I'll play every league whether I can make all the rounds or not, I just can't guarantee that I can be there. Id be willing to split some of the responsibility and fill in as LD if the person running it can't make it. If we establish handicaps, running basically 2 divisions would be a lot easier. REC (free) and Handicaped(INT-OPEN) plus that makes for better payout. I'll delete this thread in a week if I haven't heard from someone who is willing to run it.

ps if you run it kneel, you can guarantee its not on a wednesday because it will be on the day best for the person running it.

[el-jefe]

don't count the money untill its in your hands. We need to get the tourney organized and plans made to make money through raffles and ctps. Victoria spent a couple hundred for the raffle prizes and raised 800 off raffle tickets alone.

As for answering your pm, I can do that here and now. It will be impossible to have TP back in the ground by the end of may. I will not put an incomplete course in. We need to raise the money to accomplish what needs to be done, and if we half ass it and don't finish the job, it will never get finished. Im not comfortable using loaned baskets for now untill we can purchase the new ones we need because the persons loaning could get mad and pull their basket and leave us screwed. Also by not putting it in until the work is all done and everything is ready is a way to motivate people to doing the work needed to raise the funds. No $ no course. I'll get a total from the tres and post up a graphic showing what we have and what we need. Maybe a thermometer graph or something. Quit worrying about piecemealing the work on the baskets, once weve got the needed funds, it'll all get done at one time and then we can put em in the ground. As we get closer to our $goal, i'll get in touch with the city and then we can hammer out a design. Untill then, put out a collection jar in the teachers lounge and see if you can find some cheritable people amongst your church members. Tell them they can say the prayer before play starts or something important and give them a title, maybe prayer master or something officail sounding like that.
Good Luck, give em hell...er....git r done.

[rihno putter]

i am still new to the organised disc golf. how do i sign up for the summer league and is it a one time fee for the whole summer or do i have to pay somthing for each round played?

[chessguy]

Well, I wrote a loooonnng post and I guess it was too long as the system or whatever malfunctioned and it didn't get posted and even though my typing is quite fast I'm not gonna redo all that. Here it is in a nutshell.

I'm not gonna run League. I sent Dustin a pm with a suggested starting date. I don't care when it starts cause I'm gonna keep playing disc golf league or no league.

Will you go in halfsies with me Jeff on the purchase of 1 basket?

I'll be responsible for raising funds to purchase 2 additional baskets. The money for this WILL NOT come from Klein raffles if I'm to head this up. Do not continue to harp on purchasing new baskets; the more important issue is basket repair.

Wednesday leagues would just be dandy for me, smartass Jeff and I don't appreciate your scarcastic, insulting church remarks so you better keep your piehole shut concerning insults and jabs. Be mature for a change.

Our players are ready for Tyrrell to be back up and could care less if there are 15 or 18 baskets there!!!

I'll be happy to type up results each week from league, however.

You can delete whatever post you want. We'll be playing disc golf meanwhile!

[el-jefe]

League is up in the air right now. hopefully we can get it lined up soon. Keep checking in on the events page.



.................................Kneel............ .................................................. .....................


take your meds dude. you wanna know what needs to be done, I told you.
As for the baskets, I could care less what you or any one else wants to do, those baskets are my responsibility and it seems that if we are to have an 18 hole course, we need 18 baskets. you wanna do it your way kneel, call for some freakin elections and you be president.

Uh, no I won't go in halfies with you ya idiot. My money is going to the club and will be used to generate more money while making the tournament uh, more fun? I had considered buying a basket to donate with tax return money and even posted that a couple weeks ago and no one responded but blew it at disney anyway.

Um the smartass remarks were suggestions. do I need to draw it out in crayon for you? WE NEED MONEY TO FINISH THIS JOB. Bitchin at me about how long its taking will do you no good and I'll just have to tell you its your own fault. I don't see you raising any money.

Our players deserve a course with 18 nice baskets. If you wanna come by my office one day, call me. you can pick up the baskets and pay to have them fixed and then you can do what ever you want with them, but as president, I will make the final decision on how this is done and It aint gettin done till we have the money!

Hey thanks for your cooperation. Its typical kneel. Bitchin and moanin but doing nothing to better the situation. Hey why don't you type up a donation form and have it passed out to the congragation, maybe the church women can bake us some cakes to sell. Maybe put us on the prayer list, cause we need all the help we can get.Or go stand at an intersection and panhandle the money. If you do not like my suggestions, come up with your own ideas but shut your pie hole on the tp situation. I have explained it to you at least 5 times on different threads. SHUT UP or STEP UP. oops I forgot, you'll be playing.

[Sportznut]

I am sorry.... I personally wouldnt go to a course that didnt have atleast 18 baskets..... I would feel cheated...

[Tomwin]

i am still new to the organised disc golf. how do i sign up for the summer league and is it a one time fee for the whole summer or do i have to pay somthing for each round played?

Sorry you had to read the rest of the stuff above this post,

To answer your question, in the past the leagues have been a pay per league. So if the league was 6 weeks long, you pay a one time fee and get 6 weeks of play. The ones we have run in the past were like 20 bucks up front.

There are extra fees that you will pay each week like ace pot, raffle tickets etc..

We have also run weekly mini tournaments that you pay every week, normally those are 5 bucks each.

[chessguy]

I wash my hands of it all!

[el-jefe]

I had posted a respone to the rhino before trying to gently tell knell whats up. Sorry for the rant, but you will soon realize that Kneel and I have an awkward relationship. We definately don't see eye to eye on almost all things and he can't take any razzing. But I think our posts will give you an idea of the struggles our club faces when players want want want and don't put forth the effort to achieve what they want. Money dosen't grow on trees and this club dosen't recieve wellfare so we have to collectively put forth the effort to raise the money needed to get tpark back up and running.








.................................................. .....................kneel........................ ...........................

whats new? Why won't you just work with us. I mean you come to me telling me your gonna raise some money(which I have yet to see except for your personal sponsorship for PItourney), but that it has to stay seperate from the club funds and can only go to purchase a basket for tpark. Here is the deal, all the money the club has is going to tpark. But we may use some funds to raise additional money. Like turning 100 bucks into 300 by for example raffle tickets. Do you have a better way to get someone to donate 20 bucks to the club? I mean if we put some good stuff in the raffle, the gambling urge comes out in people and they realize that if they want to win that they need to put in more than 5 bucks in the raffle. nothing good in the raffle, just some discs you already have and your lucky to get someone to spend more than a couple bucks. comprenede? use money to generat more money and we will have the course up and running. Just don't try and dictate to me how things are gonna go. Like I said, If you want to be in charge, let me know and Ill resign and put you in as temp pres untill we can have a vote and officially put you in as pres., that way you can do it your way. who knows maybe people will respond to your ideas and requests for help better than mine and you can get what needs to be done, done. Untill then, don't come to me and dictate how things will be done then get mad when I tell you how it will be done. Your suggestion are much needed but thats it, suggestions.

[el-jefe]

League, if someone decides to run it, is done a couple of different ways. last year we had a couple of 6 week leagues and several 4 week leagues. 6 week leagues, you get 2 drop rounds. $ week leagues you get 1 drop.
The new way to do it that was described to me by Danger/Danger (aka Rick Bannister) is to do a standar 6 week divisional league to start off the year. Then take those scores and get a handicap for each player. All other league play for the rest of the summer is done as a group with your handicap leveling the playing field. This allows for better payout at the end of each league series. (some divisions may only have 1 or 2 people playing and it makse for a terrible payout.

The only thing that is stopping league from begining is a volunteer to run it. As soon as someone steps up it will begin. Anyone can run it and set the day to play at their convienance.

[el-jefe]

I am sorry.... I personally wouldnt go to a course that didnt have atleast 18 baskets..... I would feel cheated...


I would hate to half ass it and once the baskets are in the ground, no one will put forth the effort to finish the project. Hell, no one is putting forth the effort now so just think if their were some baskets in the ground. Plkayers around here are so lazy, they willl jsut replay the first 3 holes to make 18. Anyways, i will not allow that to happen. tpark will live again and it will be done the right way to the best of our abilities.

PS if you do raise some money or get a business to donate product to the tourney for the raffle, send roy (AveSatani) a pm and let him know what you have. Please do not post up if the money is not inyour hands.

[el-jefe]

any volunteers to run league?

[fuzzy]

Just dont do a running acepot and i am sure someone will v-teer to post the scores each week. As long as everyone makes sure their entry fee is in Roy's hand by whatever week everything should be ok. Maybe after a couple weeks someone will step up to be the LD. UNless you foresee some other issue that i am jsut not thinking of at the moment.

[sturmgeist]

What all you gotta do to LD?

[fuzzy]

Be there everyweek or make sure someone is there everyweek to collect the scores and ace/mulli money. Post scores online and keep track of points, which is pretty simple.

[el-jefe]

basically managing the events each week. list of paid players playing, ace pot, mulligan, and final scores. you have the choice of format, 4 or 6 week and whether or not you wanna do handicapped after first league(which if you do means a single division instead of 3).You also decide courses and rotation as well as tee selections for klein. The players know what to do you just gotta keep em herded in the right direction. Also i would recomend a carryover ace pot as well as a weekly ace/ctp collection. Big ace pots are cool...huhhu...do it!do it!.....pleaasssee.......somebodies gotta do it and Im beggin!!!!!! :oops: :shock: :oops:

[chessguy]

Go Will! I'll post the scores for you if you want.

I'd do 3 divisions as usual. There seems to be players that are not quite ready (scared) for Advanced and are maybe just maybe a bit too good for our Intermediate division.

By doing some stupid handicapping system you'll see players doinking putts when they've already wrapped it up, etc...

[el-jefe]

the only person I could come up with that would attempt to cheat is you kneel. anyways, a handicapped system puts all players on a level playing field. maybe do a mini for the rec division each week instead of League play. I'll have Rick call you to explain it a little better than I can, that is if you are willing to do it and you have a secretary already volunteering to post results.

[fuzzy]

I wouldnt say that everyone is on an even playing feild. In a handicap system the least consistent players have the upper hand and that ends up leaving the top players (the ones who are more consistent) with very little chance to beat them.

Example:

Player Y shoots +2 5 times and +10 5 times = +6 handicap

Player X shoots -1 5 times and -3 5 times= -2 handicap.

Player Y shoots a +5 which makes Player X have to shoot -4 to beat him. Player X is the more consistent player and is forced to shoot better then his best to win while Player Y can have a decent day and be right there with him.

It can get worse then that. Take into account that there are more inconsistent players than consistent ones who will be playing and that leaves the better players (who are more consistent) going up against multiple Player Y's increasing the odds that a less consistent player will shoot on the good side of their average. That leaves the Player X's having to shoot better then than their best to get near or on top.

There is more. If Player X is able to overcome those odds and make that happen a few times it wont last too long because he just raised the bar by making his handicap even better forcing him to shoot even better scores.

[sturmgeist]

No, I wouldn't go for the handicap system simply for the fact that I saw so many players show up during different leagues last year and having the first league be the handicap setter precludes newcomers from jumping in on subsequent leagues. It's an interesting idea, but it would be better served in a setting where players showed up consistently and was used over a longer period of time to measure the handicaps more accurately.

If people started doing actual cards on their weekend games, minis, etc and we collected them for evaluation, then it'd be different.

I'll do it, i guess, but ironically, I dunno if I'll be able to afford the first league, lmao. When is a good time to set a cutoff date for paying entry fees, and is there any logical reason for setting it early, like second week of a league, rather than the last week or week before the last?

If I don't play in competition during the first league it'll probably be easier on me in regards to learning how to be Director and all, but I dunno. I can put myself on whatever card I want to and jump back and forth between cards from week to week to make sure everyone is satisfied with how it's going. I'll print up a rulebook for funsies. :grin:

[el-jefe]

if your gonna do it and want to do a handicap system, tell the players to start recording their scores. We should do it like golf clubs do and turn in every round played with any other club member (keeps ya honest) and that way we can actually rate players games according to handicaps. Also in your example, you cited inconsistant players having the upper hand. thats not exactly true. As more rounds are added, the average mean is established and that inconsistant player still has to play basically a consistant round on that day of league to "win". The more rounds recorded, the more exact it puts your handicap. I don't know, it has worked for Rick at the woodlands and they have over 40 players now, increasing participation by about 15 players when the change was made. Better payout is more inticing than anything else when you have given every player a chance to win, players tend to like that. It does put preasure on those players who are more advanced to play to the best of their ability to stay at the top.

Any ways, if you are going to be the LD you decide how to run it and when and all that. But $5 from every player from each league goes to the club so make your entry reflect that, so if its 20 bucks, 15 per player goes to payout. Also I would do a running ace as well as a ace/ctp for each week. maybe make the running ace worth 2 bucks and the weekly a 1 dollar. I would also like to cap ace pots at $125.00.
If you need any help, call me and Ill do anything I can to help.

[fuzzy]

It can get worse then that. Take into account that there are more inconsistent players than consistent ones who will be playing and that leaves the better players (who are more consistent) going up against multiple Player Y's increasing the odds that a less consistent player will shoot on the good side of their average. That leaves the Player X's having to shoot better then than their best to get near or on top.

There is more. If Player X is able to overcome those odds and make that happen a few times it wont last too long because he just raised the bar by making his handicap even better forcing him to shoot even better scores.

The inconsistent player can stay inconsistent and that still leaves the more consistent player at a disadvantage due to the ratio of inconsistent/consistent players. When the inconsistent player has his off weeks there will likely be another one who doesnt. That leaves the better players always at a disadvantage while the inconsistent ones dont necessarily increase there average.

It's just fact that a handicap system favors the less consistent which usually translates to top players getting the shaft.

One way to help it would be to have two divisions- Handicap and Open.

But for reasons Sturm said above its still probably not a good option for us imo.

[chessguy]

Will, glad to hear you're willing to step up and run League. The hardest part you will encounter is everyone throwing there money at you at once!!! :grin: Apart from that it's just getting the cards on their way and making sure everyone records the scores correctly and turn the cards in. And yes, go over some basic rules; falling putts, pushing branches out of the way and holding on to them, marking lies, OBs, etc...

I'll give you $5 to help with your entry. You should play!

Maybe $1 ace pot, $1 mulligan (which goes to club)

A carryover Ace pot would be cool with a cap.

I'll help you get everyone in their appropriate division.

May want to get some flyers up on board and on 1st tee-sign even.

[el-jefe]

I know how most of the players score, at least I did, but most players shot in their average. The more inconsistant players would occasionally pull in a freakin killer round for their average, but also would come in with a terrible round every now and then. We all have our really good days and really bad days. The more rounds going into the mix, the more accurate the average becomes. Plus as the round count goes up to more than a dozen, you start dropping the "inconsistancies" of lows and highs. It works, it just means when an average player scoring around even shoots 3 or 4 down and the guy that averages 3 down shoots 4 down, the person who performed better than their abilities is rewarded with a better score because of their handicap. However, the better players are still batter players and are gonna be more consistantly good and will win more as a result. Incosistancies can not really be planned and therefore hitting on a high note during a league round is gonna be statistically low.
i didn't like the idea at first and kinda nodded my head when Rick was telling me about how he did it. But the more I thought on it and started talking to Rick about it, the more it came into focus and all the doubts that I had that you guys are talking about were not problems afterall.

Im not saying you have to do it. It is only an idea and suggestion to kick around. All Im doing is defending the idea. if it didn't work, it wouldn't be used in ball golf or disc golf. It just take a little more responsibilities on those players who play league to turn in accurate regulation rounds. I'd be willing to do the math and keep handicaps up to date on the site if you guys want to start a handicap. start recording your rounds and either pm them to me or turn them into me when you see me at league or a mini. Even if we don't use it for league, I may run a monthly mini on a weekend and do a round of singles and then a round of "balanced" doubles using the handicap. Handicaps will be assigned by me based on my opinion if players without a handicap want to play. My dicision will be based on the suggestions of those players with handicaps and will be final untill that person acquires a handicap.

[el-jefe]

Keep in mind that league has to be a fundraiser. We need the money to take care of tpark. Try to base as much on acquiring money for that, meaning part of the entry and the mulligans. As well as any other idea you can come up with. Maybe a weekly 50/50 split for 5 bucks each week and make it a ctp. They do a raffle style 50/50 at the hockey games and it raises some cash for the booster club. Also we need to set a date for membership dues. I think we did it last year in may? Any ways, we will do a membership drive and all at the tournament. Anybody want to head up the membership commitee?

[AveSatani]

Are you wanting to do a cash payout or discs? We still have some plastic left for at least one league. Most of the champ plastic is heavy but their still a few good ones in there and we have a ton of DX putters and Rocs. Plastic payout for one league would help the funds out considerably but we will have to purchase some more discs to run the whole summer.

Also, I will be able to run league around mid-June if you still need help.

[sturmgeist]

Yeah, I was thinking plastic payout, it'd be the most cost efficient method for fundraising. I'm still not sold on the handicap idea, again, because what happens to players who want to jump in the 4th league of the season without having played and established their handicap? 5th? I saw too many players show up late in the season last year and, ideally, league should get stronger with more players at the end than the beginning.

Keeping track of stats and round ratings and such would be cool though, especially for doubles minis.

[sturmgeist]

I want one of those damn rocs too! Been waiting to see them since league last year!

[dg]

i got a good idea to include those who are not in league, but just show up once, or everyonce in a while

do league just like normal, but also have a side cash mini that pays at the end of the round

that way if someone isn't in league and they come out, they can still compete for something

so, like a $2 entry fee for the side mini, some or most of people in league would do it too

like a league/mini combo

might rake in a couple of extra bucks for tpark too

[el-jefe]

It would need to geberate cash for the club so it would need to be more than 2 bucks. why not open to everyone playing, that way they are playing league but also competing for weekly cash?
As for plastic payout, we do have it for the first payout and we can order some more discs for the rest of the summer. I don't think we should do custom stamps, just an assortment of plastic. Roy, check and see what we can get when you get the chance.

[el-jefe]

League is organizing as we speak. Anyone want to head up the Texas Teams commitee?

[dg]

why not open to everyone playing, that way they are playing league but also competing for weekly cash?

thats what I said

[el-jefe]

oops, misread that last part. thought I read most people will play a weekly than league. painkillers ive been taken for my back got me all screwy. :rolleyes:

[dg]

i might need some of those painkillers, after pouring that slab and then playing discgolf today, my mid back is killing me

[el-jefe]

I picked up a triple basin porcelan sink and well after 1 step with it my lower back went out.

[AveSatani]

I will check tonight, count discs and post a count. I totally agree on custom plastic - I can get regular plastic a lot faster and cheaper.

[AveSatani]

Discs will not be purchased from a vendor. We have supplier. We will purchase discs for the second league if their is interest in league play.
GTDG disc stock:

DX Plastic -
33 aviar putters
8 rocs
5 teebirds
4 beast

Champ plastic-
7 Firebirds
8 valks
8 starfire (sl)

Star plastic-
3 t rex

Most disc are heavy.

[el-jefe]

I have 2 of each model in a box at the house so add those in.

[sturmgeist]

I'm gonna start league next week on the 18th, give Klein a bit of time to drain. Start at Klein, thinking about first round from the long tees for a change of pace. Normal 3 division setup, if there are enough players to support 3 divisions. $1 Ace pot $1 mulligan per round, what are the entry fees supposed to run, and what's a good start time?

[dg]

flex start, 5 to 6 ish

[el-jefe]

20-25 each series. 5 to club, so payout will be 15-20

[sturmgeist]

So 25 for "open" and 20 for lower divisions? Show up at 5 and we tee sometime before 6. If I can get some supplies together what do you guys think of me dying one each of the Champ/Star discs and adding $5 or so to their price at payout? We can see how well that's received and if it works out, I'll do more for subsequent leagues if we order more plastic.

[AveSatani]

I think he means $20 for four-week league and $25 for six.
I have found that the more money we ask for, the more prohibitive it becomes for most players.

[el-jefe]

4 weeks vs. 6
Doing a league every 4 weeks will generate more funds. I know people like having 2 drops, but in the interest of tp, I think 4 week leagues will be the most effective in raising cash. is open paying cash or plastic?

[dg]

4 week leagues, 1 drop, party not on league day so no off week

OPEN should pay cash, all other divisions pay plastic, JMO

[sturmgeist]

How does this look for a flyer? Got a more eyecatching font I'll print it on.



Golden Triangle Disc Golf

Summer League I for the 2007 season
kicks off Wednesday, April 18th.
Proceeds to benefit the Tyrrell Park
course resurrection effort.
Players meet at the covered pavilion
at Klein Park, 5pm – April 18th for first round.

4 weeks of play with one drop round
$20 Entry
Open division payout in ca$h
Rec and Intermediate payout in
high quality pick-your-own plastic.

Summer League I 2007
April 18 - May 9

[AveSatani]

That will work! :smile:

[dg]

cool, who's gonna play??? I'm in.

[chessguy]

Looking forward to it. Gonna try to get my round in as early as possible so I don't get back home when my daughter is going to bed! :-|

[sturmgeist]

Well, ya'll start calling folks, let em know. I'll get a couple of flyers out to klein as soon as I can. We should at least be able to get the usual suspects out there right? Neil, see if you can talk the vidor guys into playing if you see any of them. It would help to have the bulletin board at Klein relocated to a spot near #1's tee. Not sure what I can stick flyers on out there at the moment besides teeposts.

[sturmgeist]

Does anybody have scorecards? Cause I sure don't. I'll print some up if need be.

[AveSatani]

i'll bring the cards but i wont be there until about 5:45

[sturmgeist]

That's fine, I guess we'll tee around 6 then. It's getting dark right around 8, so that should be enough time for us.

[el-jefe]

I'll see if I have any at my office. I think I may have a pack from tyrrell park left. If not, I'll bring some paper so those that need to start asap can.

[sturmgeist]

I found a good printable template online.

I'm thinking about doing a mix of shorts and longs now.

1 long
2 short
3 long
4 long
5 long
6 short
7 short
8 short
9 long
10 long
11 short
12 long
13 long
14 short
15 short
16 short
17 long
18 short

Any objections?

[el-jefe]

I would keep it simple, remember who we are talking about. :-P Its hard enough to stay on track doing short long. I would put out flags or tape to mark the teeboxes if you are going to vary them the way you are suggesting, so there are no problems.

[AveSatani]

I must agree. You must clearly mark the holes or there will be confusion. That did sound like fun but we should do shorts first or maybe just a few longs until the days get a little longer.

[dg]

yea, too confusing unless clearly marked on the ground

i think short, longs, or odds even - even odds is OK

[sturmgeist]

I'm just trying to go for a mix of the best holes on the course, and at the same time keep us off as many nasty teeboxes as possible till they dry up a little bit. There are a lot of them, like #15, that are being ruined by dumb fucks who don't have the sense to NOT grind their damn big ass feet into them while they're soaking wet.

I'll give you the length of day factor - it's getting dark right about 8 now. But these scorecards I printed out have a box under each hole # where it would be very simple to write L or S in bright ink. I think that, along with a polite reminder to check your scorecard between rounds to see which tee you are playing from next ought to be sufficient, right?

[dg]

I think that, along with a polite reminder to check your scorecard between rounds to see which tee you are playing from next ought to be sufficient, right?

key word here is "ought"

remember who you are dealing with, lmao

with mix and match orientation, just makes for greater chance of a card screwing up (and not telling anyone)

[el-jefe]

your decision Boss. I would keep it simple to start off. We have all spring summer and early fall to play any combination you can come up with. Conditions have to be played by all and though some may be horrible, its horrible for all.

Maybe we should play shorts and have a short meeting and update those players who do not access the site, on whats going on with the club and our going non profit. That way we can also go over League and how ace pot will be handled as well as mulligans and ctps or whatever else we plan to include. I am also going to need a breakdown of what goes to the club and what goes to payout. That will give us an idea of how much we can expect to raise this summer and an idea of how much plastic we need to purchase for payout. We have enough payout for the first league, maybe two depending on the turnout of this first series. Is this a 4 or 6 week series?

[dg]

We need to call all the stragglers and get them to show up at league tonight. I'll call:

Danny Wise
Kenny Johnson
Jerry Hawkins
Tim Robinson
Goat Head Ed
World Champ Vance


Everyone else call the stragglers you know... can anyone call the vidor guys?

[chessguy]

Mr. LD...that's League Director, Will. Are we playing LONGs this Wednesday? I need to prepare mentally. :D I have a feeling' someone's gonna shoot in the RED on longs on the new layout soon. :cool:

You may want to go look at 17's basket and decide what you want to do about it.

[sturmgeist]

I DO know what LD means. :rolleyes:

What do you mean "what you want to do about it" on hole 17? I don't want to do anything about it - hole 7 and 17 are as they are untill they get welded up. And no, there will be no holding of the basket, or resituating it, unless the first card to play 17 sends someone ahead to hold the basket while everyone else drives. There will be no discrepancy between shots - the basket will not be purposefully altered between shots, between cards, or otherwise. You take the putt you leave yourself, you hole out, you leave the basket AS IS.

I'll remind everyone of that Wednesday.

[sturmgeist]

Oh, and for future reference, for this league and upcoming series, do not ask me "longs or shorts" about any given round, and if I happen to tell someone offhand, please do not post it or spread the word around. I don't want anyone using that information as a cop out to skip and use their drop. I won't be posting it, you will find out what tees you play from when you show up.

[chessguy]

O.K. Will, so what you're saying is that if the basket is leaning and someone playing league adjusts the basket in ANY way that they are to get what penalty? A stroke? 2 strokes? I mean, if a player just gets their discs out of the basket then the basket shouldn't really move at all. I guarantee you someone will "accidentally" by habit, adjust it...what then? Won't be enforced, that's what. If 17s basket were by some chance level on the first card to arrive at basket, I can assure you that after a single putt the basket will lean completely forward!!! Would be a good time for you to bring out your basket and put it on the hill for us.

Dude, never mind. I'll rig it before the round!!! goodness

Still no word about what layout? Maybe it will just be a surprise. :rolleyes:

[el-jefe]

Thats a good way to do it. hey, will you continue to post the actual scores shot so we can keep up with the stroke play we have going on also?

[sturmgeist]

Yeah I'll keep posting the way I did, with scores and points both.

Neal, it sounds to me like you doinked a putt on the basket yesterday and are fuming about it to me like I'm responsible for making sure it doesn't happen again. If you're so worried about it, try throwing your putts flat and level, or even a little nose up, instead of Concording them.

This is the only applicable rule I can find on the subject:

"805.03

B. Obstacles Between the Lie and Hole: A
player may not move, alter, bend, break,
or hold back any part of any obstacle,
including casual obstacles, between the lie
and the hole, with one exception: A player
may move obstacles between the lie and
the hole that became a factor during
the round, such as spectators, players’
equipment, open gates, or branches that
fell during the round. Where it is not
known if an obstacle has become a factor
during a round, it shall not be moved. It
is legal for a player’s throwing motion to
make incidental movement of an obstacle."

But using this rule in this case opens up a whole new can of worms - specifically, the use of the rule as a loophole to put another player at a disadvantage. The rule, in regards to obstacles(the cage of the pole hole is very much an obstacle, sometimes the ONLY obstacle on a given hole) that became a factor during play, says players "may move" said obstacle. It does not specify they may move the obstacle BACK to it's original state, just that they may move it. This means that a player could legally adjust the basket to an unfair angle for another player, within the rules, because nothing of the sort is covered in the rest of the rulebook, there is no precedent set.

So I am inclined to not allow this interpretation of the rule here, and use 804.01 A, "Special Conditions" to specify that the basket is not to be touched any more than is necessary to retrieve one's disc. Disregard of this ruling will result in a penalty stroke to the offending player. The basket will remain unaltered unless the alterations are made before I reach the course on wednesday.

[sturmgeist]

Upon further examination, it seems that I don't have the ability to specify penalty strokes for special conditions infractions. So my special condition ruling is that violation of it will constitute an infraction of 804.05 A.

"804.05 A
A player shall be disqualified by the director for meeting any of the necessary conditions of disqualification as set forth in the rules, or for any of the following:
... (2) Willful and overt destruction or abuse of plant life, course hardware, or any other property considered part of the golf course or the park."

So just don't be messin wit da baskets, see? Don't adjust the cages, don't tip them one way or another if they're leaning, don't uproot them and throw them in the woods or turn them upside down, don't do anything to them or you might get yourself DQed.

[fuzzy]

Will is going John Houck on ya'lls ass! As it should be.

[el-jefe]

This is not a sanctioned event. where in the rules allow for mulligans? You can make your own specific rules, mandos, tee box changes. PDGA rules are guildlines to follow but are by no means binding to the LD and he can make changes or add to those rules for league as he sees fit.

[chessguy]

Neal, it sounds to me like you doinked a putt on the basket yesterday and are fuming about it to me like I'm responsible for making sure it doesn't happen again.


The basket was level and I made a straddle par putt from the tree. Then it went BAM!!!

[fuzzy]

When it went "Bam", did your disc fall out?

[chessguy]

When it went "Bam", did your disc fall out?

No.

Longs this Wednesday. I didn't hear that from anyone, though. :-D

(Watch it not be longs...lmao)

[sturmgeist]

The basket was level and I made a straddle par putt from the tree. Then it went BAM!!!

Ok, so YOU broke the basket and now want me to see what I want to do about it?

[chessguy]

Ok, so YOU broke the basket and now want me to see what I want to do about it?

Yeah, I broke it, sorry. :(

Rain should be coming soon.

You're doing a good job, Will. Thanks for running league.

Hey, I have some wire. What do you say we get out there early and wrap it around the basket a few times. Just want everyone to be able to shoot at a somewhat level/sturdy basket.

[el-jefe]

Just don't damage anything more than it already is. You will be held responsible for anything you do on your own. And do not use a cold weld product. It won't hold up and is hard a hell to get off to put a good weld on.

[dg]

its gonna be nasty tomorrow! woohoo!!!

[el-jefe]

Dustin, you wearin ur waders? Hopefully the rain will be done by the time league starts. Rain or shine we play.:neutral:

[el-jefe]

well, I guess my 2 up wasn't as bad as I thought. especially seeing the other scores in my division!:D

[chessguy]

Will, I have a few questions/concerns I'd like to pose as a paid in member of League. I will be polite and I hope you'll appropriately answer each question as the LD.

1. Late scorecard?--What happened. I finish my round, go home to my family and find out everyone gets stroked.

2. You mentioned not to ask you what layout/teeboxes we'd be playing for League. Why should that be a secret? It's not a secret in tournaments. By knowing, one can prepare. That's a good thing.

3. Has it been the precedent before in previous leagues to get credit/points for beating someone even if they don't show up to play?

4. When I asked you what set of tees we were playing from it seemed like you hadn't given it much thought. I have a couple of concerns about your choice to play shorts. First of all, Klein has two sets of teeboxes and logic would say that if we are gonna do two rounds at Klein then we'd play one from each set of boxes. Next and most importantly is the conditions of the Short teeboxes. As these boxes get the most play they were definately tough to play from given the conditions. Granted everyone is on a level playing ground. (footwear aside) There's a safety issue also. We assume that we are to play within the normal allowed range of the teebox as I haven't heard otherwise. The long boxes not getting much play were in fine condition to play from. Most if not all of them are built up pretty good with sand. Long teeboxes seemed like the better pick given the conditions. Did your choice have anything to do with me continually asking if we were playing Longs, Will or did you choose longs because maybe you feel you'll score better? Hope that didn't sound rude but it leads me to my next point.

5. I see no reason why us Advanced/Open players couldn't play the long tees. I mean we are playing Advanced. I don't think anyone in our division would've been scared to play longs because maybe they thought them too difficult. We're Advanced...give us a challenge. I mean all the other divisions could've easily played shorts if you wanted them to. I do understand that Jeff was on ya'lls card but that is easily dealt with by him driving 1st each time.

6. I was obviously challenged enough by playing shorts. Beside the point.

7. Are we expected to follow basic rules of disc golf such as marking our putts? Is disc flipping to mark the lie allowed? Can we pick up peoples disc for them if it is laying under the basket? 3 ft? 5 ft? 10 ft? Just wondering. I'll have a mini for James next time I see him. Please let me know during a round if you have any rules concerns as I'll make sure to correct them out of respect and integrity of the game.

Thanks, Will. I hope you won't get mad at me for expressing these concerns.

Oh, yeah...drop, please. :o

[AveSatani]

I don't think it was necessary to stroke anyone:confused: But it doesn't change the outcome except for Rufus and Jeff. We left, something happened, and then we got stroked. You are going to find it is hard to give out arbitrary penalties without stating a system other than standard practice. But do as you wish, I deserve everything I got yesterday - DROP ROUND:oops:

[dg]

I'd like to take a stab at Neils concerns....

1. Late scorecard? I left with the card because I didn't know about the box and forgot to drive around to the other side of the course and give Will the card.

2. Withholding layout? I don't think it should be done intentionally. Just let everyone know what the plan is. Why not? But TD can keep it a secret, because the TD is the TD.

3. Points for beating a no show? Yes, in previous leagues, you get points for beating the no shows. Its illogical to do it otherwise.

4. Longs vs. Shorts? I agree with Wills decision to play the shorts. It was nasty and muddy and the longs would have sucked and taken forever. If the TD said longs, then I would have played the longs. TD's call.

5. Different division different boxes? I dont see a problem with this, as long as there aren't mixed divisions on a card. It would be retarded for Jeff to have played the long box on every hole with the rest of the card playing shorts. TD's call.

6. Neil got last place? HAHAHAHAHAHA

7. Is there a rule book? I think before anyone starts getting stroked for any violations, a clearer description of expectations should be set out. Are we following the PDGA rules? Because if we are, are we really gonna follow all the rules? Like flipping disc, 30 second rule. I think this is league and should be more relaxed than PDGA tournaments.


IMO, with the not so clear guidelines on violations worth stroking, I think its kinda f'ed up to penalize Rufus only. I mean I realize we were all penalized on the card, but only Rufus was affected negatively.

Oh, and Will, you messed up the points on the last week, me and james should have 12 points each.

[fuzzy]

7. The PDGA rule book rules ARE the rules of disc golf...technically not following these rules means you arent actually playing Disc Golf. 804 in the rules book is for PDGA Sanctioned tournaments, but I can see following these rules and it appears Will has decided to do so. Everyone should always assume the rules found in the PDGA rulebook are the rules to follow, because they are. There really is no "relaxed rules" just the "Official Rules of Disc Golf" used both by the PDGA and the WFDA. So if you use "relaxed rules" then not everyone will be playing the same game.

I think the penalty was warranted for the late scorecard. Will is a v-teer and should not have to devote more time then he already does. By having to track down a card, or having to wait to get the card when he wants to get the scores up and done with so he doesnt have to think about it agian til the next week.

Rufus ends up the one to suffer, but honestly he is just as responsible for making sure the scorecard gets in the hand of the LD as everyone else. Lesson learned and he can take 2points out of Dustin's ass for running off with the card...lol

[dg]

i agree with you fuzzy, but since there was never a single statement made as to exactly what to do with a scorecard and what would happen when that unstated something wasn't followed

[fuzzy]

804.03 E

[dg]

but, again, the fact that we are following 804.03 E was never communicated

so i guess following your logic, we are playing the 30 second rule, disc flipping rule, and moving live tree limbs rule

[fuzzy]

I will concede that Will should clearly state that he is also following the rules found under section 804 of the rulebook. Seeing that He made it clear that he was using other portions of that section I beleive it was reasonible for all involved to assume he was using section 804 in it's entirety though.

[fuzzy]

As far as disc flipping, 30 seconds, moving limbs etc....you have the right to make that call, you always have. It's up to someone to make the call. Ill let you figure out why Will is not responsible for letting you knwo you have to do that.

[chessguy]

Its illogical to do it otherwise.

4. Longs vs. Shorts? I agree with Wills decision to play the shorts. It was nasty and muddy and the longs would have sucked and taken forever. If the TD said longs, then I would have played the longs. TD's call.

5. Different division different boxes? I dont see a problem with this, as long as there aren't mixed divisions on a card. It would be retarded for Jeff to have played the long box on every hole with the rest of the card playing shorts. TD's call.



Dustin, seems illogical to me to get points when you don't actually beat someone. :confused: I tried to look up past league results but it seems that they are in Matrix form.

DUstin, why would the longs have sucked? Because you suck at them? Or because you'd actually have good footing on drives? Taken forever??? Why would that matter? And why would you think it would take any longer than normal?

Concerning different people using different boxes on a card. It happens all the time in SN events. 1st rounds are typically mixed groupings and even if a "shorter tee" box has the box then the longer box would go first.

I await Will's reply. 'preciate you stepping up, Will. The "holing out" thing is what bothers me most cause I miss 8 footers all the time!!! I'd hate for others "what some would consider gimme" putts to be picked up.

And Dustin, it became clear to me that last week your card was probably playing some "favorable" teebox positions.

[fuzzy]

Of course you get points if someone is not there...they paid to play X number of rounds and they get what they paid for. If they arent there then they forfeit and get last place. To not give points would also screw other players. I would hate to see someone win because they played 3 weeks that more players were at or becasue they had a 1 point lead going into the last week and decided not to show up themselves so the other person couldnt possibly get enough points to catch them.

Bottomline though is that you enter into a 4 round league and drop the worst week. It's what you pay for, so its what you get.

[fuzzy]

Players on the same card using different tee boxes should NEVER happen and the Sn should know better then to do that. It is unfair to the player that is playing the harder course to have to play against others that are playing an easier course. It is also unfair to those playing the shorter course since they have to wait longer on one person to play a longer course.

[chessguy]

I would hate to see someone win because they played 3 weeks that more players were at or becasue they had a 1 point lead going into the last week and decided not to show up themselves so the other person couldnt possibly get enough points to catch them.


Exactly what I was thinking. :twisted:

Yeah, Jarred played with John Fowler in Baton Rouge the first round. It is commonplace in Louisiana to do mixed cards the first round. Odd but common. You know of John Fowler, Fuzzy? He's a 1000 rated player. His putter is sooo old; a softie.

They have as many as 4 divisions on a card sometimes.

[fuzzy]

I can see being cool and allowing mixed cards in Round 1 of a tourney...i cant see doing it with players teeing from different tees. That should never be allowed.

Btw, paranoid much?

[sturmgeist]

Neal, to answer your questions -

1. You didn't turn the scorecard in. And before you say it wasn't YOU that didn't turn it in, yes it was. You didn't turn it in, Dustin didn't, neither did James, Rufus, or Roy.
804.03 F. All players are responsible for returning their scorecards within 25 minutes after completion of a round. Failure to do so shall result in the assessment of two penalty throws, without a warning, to each player listed on the late scorecard.
Since nobody turned it in, EACH of you failed to meet your responsibility. I am torn by the fact that only Ruff-dog is affected by this, but that's the way it is. I imagine if nobody else, he will get the scorecard back to me next time. The thing is, guys, WE were teeing off on 13 when you guys were finishing up on 18. We were RIGHT there across the ditch, and there's no excuse for somebody not running across the bridge and dropping it to me, or even sticking it in my windshield wipers. No need to wait, it could easily have been taken care of.

2. It's your home town course. If you're not prepared to play from either/or on your home course, I don't know what to tell you. I'm not divulging the tee setup before the players meeting for a round because I don't want anyone cheaping out and not showing up for a round from the longs.

3.Yes

4.I acted a bit confused because everyone else knew what tees we were playing from, because I told them as they arrived. YOU, however, instead of coming to the little players circle that was going on, bypassed us all and went across the bridge to do putting practice. Not my fault you skipped out on that. As for the conditions of the boxes, you have, as outlined in the rules, 3 meters from the front line of the tee, and 5 meters relief from any casual water. If the tees are too slippery, forego your runup.

As for tee choice, that's my prerogative and I don't have to give you any justification for that. I will say, however, that playing from the longs would have put everyone in MORE muddy nasty situations, and on top of that, we would not have finished our round before dark - I waited till 6 to go out with the last card, and, playing from the longs, we would have been caught in the dark.

As far as your little insinuation, that's skirting the edge of coming under 804.05 A., and YES, my pointing that out constitutes a warning.

5. No, we won't be doing that when I'm running league. That's that. Everyone plays the same course.

6. No comment.

7. A player may choose to use the thrown disc as his marker so long as it is not moved or repositioned. A player will receive a warning for the first violation of a lie marking if witnessed by two or more memebers of the group. Subsequent infractions will result in the assessment of a penalty throw, again, if witnessed by two or more group members. 803.03, sections A and G.

Yes, we are going to play BY THE RULES. It is ridiculous to me that I would have to specify that we are playing by the rules laid out by the PDGA - because this is a competitive league, and we must play by SOME rules, and since there is only one set of recognized rules laid out for us, it should be self explanatory WHICH set of rules we are following. THE rules.

Be careful what you say - if you admit to having seen rules violations, and did nothing about them, then you are in violation of the rules yourself.

It is not my responsibility to spoon feed the rules to the players. Neither is it my responsibility to keep an eye on all the players to record violations. Believe me, if I could corral all of you like a class of kindergartners and keep a watchful eye... well, hell no I wouldn't do that, ya'll would be some nasty ass little Bebe's kids. That ain't my job.

Again, I would like to point out how ridiculous I think it is to have to SPECIFY that we are in fact playing by THE rules, but I will make sure to do so next round.

[el-jefe]

I believe our volunteer LD has spoken and its his choice of how league is run. Everyone who has posted up was given the option to run league and it took putting pressure on will to get him to do it. If you go back and check the posts asking for volunteers, it discusses the fact that if you volunteer to run this club fundraiser, you do it how you choose. Maybe when Will gets tired of running league, someone else can step up and run league the way they choose. rules are rules and unless otherwise stated, they are in effect.

[el-jefe]

Last year, if you didn't show up at all you got no points, but points were awarded for the amount of people signed up for league. If you drove through the park and waved at the ld, you got your last place points.

I like the idea of not knowing what layout we are gonna play. Levels the playing field for those of us who cannot get out and play the proposed layout 100 times before the league round. Anyways, if you got skills, it shouldn't matter if you are playing from the longs or shorts. Can I git a "tru dat"!?:twisted:

[chessguy]

Btw, paranoid much?

Well, Jeff has already scratched my vehicle when it was new and put a bullet on top of it. What else is he capable of? Who knows. If I see anything new wrong with my vehicle I'll blame Jeff directly and proceed to kick his ass.

[sturmgeist]

Neal, this is a discussion of summer league play, please refrain from hijacking it and turning it into a Jeff Vs neal thread.

[dg]

Omg .

[el-jefe]

Its always my fault yet I did neither.

Lets pray for some dry days ahead so we can move some dirt and fix some tee boxes. I've got a large tamper, maybe we can pack the dirt and it will hold up a little longer, it will at least help level them.

[chessguy]

Neal, this is a discussion of summer league play, please refrain from hijacking it and turning it into a Jeff Vs neal thread.

My bad. Have a nice weekend, chaps. Ya'll my homeboys. Now about league, looking forward to playing the Island and taking a 1st and no worse than a 2nd for a slip in 1st place win in League I. (...if only) ;)

[chessguy]

So what course are we playing for League this week?

Any word on what tees we'll be throwing from? :p

[dg]

pleasure island from the red tees

[el-jefe]

Ive got a job in port arthur then 36 blinds to hang at the beach. I am going to try and make it. I'll call and let someone know where I am around 5:30.